Quote from: jeff37923;69115390% to 95% goobledigook with about 5% to 10% stuff that works just to keep the Players guessing.

And yes, either excise everything from Aleister Crowley or just paint him to be the fraud he was. One of the most surefire ways I use to identify a nutter these days is if they quote Aleister Crowley at me.

This isn't the thread to have a debate about it (feel free to start one in the Pundit's forum if you like) but needless to say I disagree with you about Crowley.

RPGPundit

Quote from: beejazz;691280Give me the high level flyby on what people actually think might work (especially with a list of actual books), give me a system flexible enough to allow what does work, and let me decide what does and doesn't. Give me enough wiggle room to decide between Cthulhu only and a game of Hellboy if that's what I want.

That's probably the best answer I heard so far.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691282I prefer a "no magick but the Mythos" approach in Call of Cthulhu.  The mundane occult in such a game is just powerless wankery; if any actual power is manifest in an occult practice, it comes Mythos sources, regardless of what the magician thinks he's doing.

One question here would be just what the "mythos sources" are? Do you want to create a well-ordered and defined Pantheon in the way post-lovecraft writers did and say "this is what there is, period"?  In which case it seems odd to me; to claim that occultism material "takes the mystery out of stuff" but then demanding a fully rigid structured mythos like an OCD-kid organizing his train sets.

If not, if the Mythos should be ineffable too in order to keep that sense of mystery, then your statement makes little sense anyways: wouldn't any magick that works by definition be from "mythos sources"?
I mean, certainly things like the demons of Abra-melin (or the goetic Qlippoth of the nightside of the tree of life), or the Enochian Angels, or the Holy Guardian Angel, or BABALON and the Abyss, the Night of Pan and the City of the Pyramids, are all things that sound pretty mythos-like to me in the sense of being powerful things beyond human reason.
And I mean shit, that's where all these lovecraftian and pre-lovecraftian and post-lovecraftian magicians got it from!
Shit, Arthur Machen was in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.  And the Necronomicon is little more than the fictional analogue for the Goetia.

Mind you, if the point was to say "the Archangel Raphael" or "the demon Belial" should just be cultural names attributed to entities that are not in fact from the judeo-christian tradition but are cosmic forces who were named that way by europeans and would have been called something else in India, or Africa or China, and these would all be different names for an entity or force that transcends all these cultural trappings, then sure, I agree.  But the Hermetic Qabalah in modern magick also already thinks that too.


RPGPundit

I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.

Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.

And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!

Quote from: Spinachcat;691849I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.

Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.

And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!

Stomping out all the occultists would also help in that case.

I generally agree with the 90% wrong crowd.

I think that stuff along the lines of the supernatural evil stuff in Machen's, Howard's and Ashton-Smith's works should probably be in though since the latter's part of the Mythos since day one and the former was such an inspiration to HPL.

Yes that does mean that some sorcerer types might have actual magic w/o being all about the core HPL Mythos. Sorcerers in REH's and CAS' stories do after all. But that would have to be used very sparingly. I mean I could include a campaign villain based on say the REH style Serpent Man sorcerer corporation CEO in GURPS' CthulhuPunk, but wouldn't have the campaign crawling (ha!) with dudes like that. It's CoC/etc after all not Urban Fantasy and if going total REH/CAS with the magic it could turn into the latter real quick.

Personally though I'd really enjoy a Machen-themed campaign most of all.

Quote from: 3rik;691896Stomping out all the occultists would also help in that case.

There's just so many occultists the PCs can murder before the cops get onto their cases, though. Remember, the mid-war period is also a period of great detectives.

Quote from: RPGPundit;691835Do you want to create a well-ordered and defined Pantheon in the way post-lovecraft writers did and say "this is what there is, period"?

No.

Quote...wouldn't any magick that works by definition be from "mythos sources"?

Yes.  Any source of magick that works would be from a mythos source.  The distinction I would draw is that such sources may not be what the practitioner of magick imagines them to be.  Indeed, the practice of magick, itself, is unlikely to be what the practitioncer imagines it to be.

I see the world of the Mythos as being very bleak.  Humanity is insignificant and not special, the cosmos cares nothing for us and does not operate in the paradigm we imagine or wish for.  Human religion is a dream.  Human science is infantile.  Reality is far more uncaring and complex and terrible than we could begin to imagine.  Et cetera.

A conception of magick as understanding oneself and one's condition in the world of the Mythos means successful magick is a direct and swift path to insanity.

A conception of magick as being an art or science of understanding in action, or of causing change in conformity with human will would be an error, a view of monumental hubris, and a dangerous joke.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;691969A conception of magick as understanding oneself and one's condition in the world of the Mythos means successful magick is a direct and swift path to insanity.

What little I know of real-world magic traditions seem to set up mankind as being somewhat important in the general cosmology... which is opposite the Mythos take.
When I was looking at adding elements of Kult to my CoC games this became a big friction point because Kult is based on gnostic traditions... humans are the heirs to the kingdom... and those assumptions don't fit.
In the end it either alters the basis of the magic or alters the Mythos. I'd prefer the former... meaning most of the traditions have it wrong to some degree and those who can pull something off have had the revelation that much of what they've learned is utter nonsense.

Quote from: Simlasa;691979What little I know of real-world magic traditions seem to set up mankind as being somewhat important in the general cosmology... which is opposite the Mythos take.
When I was looking at adding elements of Kult to my CoC games this became a big friction point because Kult is based on gnostic traditions... humans are the heirs to the kingdom... and those assumptions don't fit.
In the end it either alters the basis of the magic or alters the Mythos. I'd prefer the former... meaning most of the traditions have it wrong to some degree and those who can pull something off have had the revelation that much of what they've learned is utter nonsense.

Oh, as a probably slight off-topic, i can help you in the idea of mixing elements of CoC and KULT:
The answer is in KULT, since it is based on the idea that reality is a lie ...
The question is simply "Is the CoC Mythos also a lie and the great Cthulhu just a sock puppet for the evil angels(don't remember what they were called), or is the gnostic tradition just something made-up by humans in their attempts to not go insane? Ot is it a mix of both?"

Here's my problem with the 90% wrong. If I am playing a game of Raiders of R'yleh, then if occultists are involved in the scenario / module / adventure  / wtf we are calling it this week, then I don't want 90% of my play time to be wild goose chases.

90% wrong seems a bit high.  Maybe more like 75%.

Bear in mind though that I would expect them to be "functionally right but factually wrong" for much of that 25%.  Just like the mainstream's occultist: the scientist.

Oat bran is good.
Oat bran is bad.
Oat bran is good.
Etc

Quote from: Spinachcat;691849I know a wee bit of early 20th century occultism, but if you want to sell me another Cthulhu RPG, then it better give me lots of interesting toys.

Here's how I see it. If the Mythos existed, then almost all occultists would be drawn into their web of power and madness. And not just the serious ones. The noobie, casual at the parlor party occultist could accidently tap into something truly dangerous.

And that's why heroes need to stomp out all the monsters!

Isn't that called Cthulhutech?

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;692095Isn't that called Cthulhutech?

JG

Cthulhutech is more Pacific Rim with big guns being brought out against the Mythos in a sci-fi environment. My view (I may be wrong) of Raiders of R'lyeh is more Indy Jones / Hellboy / We kickass for the Lord style action horror.

Quote from: Spinachcat;692104Cthulhutech is more Pacific Rim with big guns being brought out against the Mythos in a sci-fi environment.

TV Tropes describes it as "Cthulhu Mythos + Neon Genesis Evangelion".
Wich btw sounds sufficiently awesome to me that I'm considering getting it.
Even though, well, we're obviously talking "intensely dark and kinda mean" here.

Quote from: Bill White;691202The PCs in The Big Hoodoo are Bob Heinlein, his wife Virginia, sf editor Tony Boucher

Rocket to the Morgue! You might have just sold another copy, Bill. Well done.