Quote from: Benoist;690276When your idea of a professional RPG is to have cardboard counters, glossy paper and color artwork throughout to wank on in your spare time, I think you might be missing something about what RPGs are actually supposed to be designed for. YMMV.

So I guess all the kids who had this up on their wall (not to mention the half-wit who designed it) were useless wankers who didn't understand what RPGs are designed for.



Not to mention these goofy gimmicks...



...or this garbage.

Quote from: Haffrung;690316So I guess all the kids who had this up on their wall (not to mention the half-wit who designed it) were useless wankers who didn't understand what RPGs are designed for.

Those are nice and cool things. Besides being fun to play with they all have something else in common. Know what it is?

Spoiler

All of it is optional. You can play D&D without any of that

Haffrung nailed it.

There are 'casual gamers' and there are 'hobbyist gamers'.  I've played with a lot of people over the years and hobbyists like to think about the game even when they're not playing.  The often make great DMs (because they're thinking about campaign stuff between sessions) but they also participate in other related hobbys.  

I have boxes of miniatures, most of which require some attention.  I even got the Reaper Bones kickstarter package (because how could I not) even though I'm at least 4 years behind on my painting (kids will do that to you).  

Expensive minis as a requirement for the game can be a deterrent due to high cost of entry.  But if all of these things are an enhancement of the game, GREAT.

Paizo understands that pretty well.  They probably make as much or more on their printed battlemats and map-cards as they do on their books.

Quote from: Haffrung;690316So I guess all the kids who had this up on their wall (not to mention the half-wit who designed it) were useless wankers who didn't understand what RPGs are designed for.

LOL. You completely misunderstood the point. Oh SO surprising!

Reading comprehension is your friend.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690318Those are nice and cool things. Besides being fun to play with they all have something else in common. Know what it is?

All of it is optional. You can play D&D without any of that

Agreed about the Greyhawk map and the minis, but polyhedral dice are pretty much required to play D&D - and at the time that D&D first came out, they were not widely available.

Quote from: jhkim;690330Agreed about the Greyhawk map and the minis, but polyhedral dice are pretty much required to play D&D - and at the time that D&D first came out, they were not widely available.

They make things so much easier but are hardly required.

When the first Holmes printings were released, they came with chit cards you could cut out and put in little cups.

Less fancy perhaps, you could make your own chits with paper or cardstock and a pen. The dice are just handy number generators they are not the game.

The important part of rpg play is that the action take place in the minds of the participants. Use whatever physical play aids you wish to add to the fun but if you can't remove them and still have an rpg then the game has failed as an rpg.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690332They make things so much easier but are hardly required.

When the first Holmes printings were released, they came with chit cards you could cut out and put in little cups.

Less fancy perhaps, you could make your own chits with paper or cardstock and a pen. The dice are just handy number generators they are not the game.

Weren't you just complaining about the dice in DCC?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690332They make things so much easier but are hardly required.

When the first Holmes printings were released, they came with chit cards you could cut out and put in little cups.

Less fancy perhaps, you could make your own chits with paper or cardstock and a pen. The dice are just handy number generators they are not the game.

The important part of rpg play is that the action take place in the minds of the participants. Use whatever physical play aids you wish to add to the fun but if you can't remove them and still have an rpg then the game has failed as an rpg.

OK, but those dice were still presumed in how the game was written (i.e. roll d12).  If you allow that D&D can be played with substituted equipment, then doesn't the same thing apply to the Star Wars specialty dice, for example?

Quote from: VectorSigma;690335Weren't you just complaining about the dice in DCC?

The dice are not the game in DCC either. You could use chits for that too if wanted.

That's it, imma start my own troll threads, with blackjack and hookers.

Quote from: jhkim;690337OK, but those dice were still presumed in how the game was written (i.e. roll d12).  If you allow that D&D can be played with substituted equipment, then doesn't the same thing apply to the Star Wars specialty dice, for example?

I'm not that familliar with the Star Wars game. Hard to say without reading it.

Quote from: Benoist;690329LOL. You completely misunderstood the point. Oh SO surprising!

I understand your point alright. All the items beyond plain text in books that were around in 1983 - glossy maps, DM screens, polyhedral dice, hex paper, miniatures, dungeon geomorphs, illustration books in modules, these - are perfectly acceptable. Anything beyond plain text in books in the last 15 years - full-colour books, cards, dice with anything other than numbers on them, flip-maps, pogs - is gimmicky, non-RPG material that only those who lack imagination would want.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;690332The important part of rpg play is that the action take place in the minds of the participants. Use whatever physical play aids you wish to add to the fun but if you can't remove them and still have an rpg then the game has failed as an rpg.

Are the To Hit tables in the AD&D DMG necessary to play? And does putting them on a screen (along with a kick-ass illustration on the player's side) invalidate the game as an RPG?

Quote from: Endless Flight;690275There actually is a conversion chart in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire telling you what number on a "normal" die means what symbol. They kind of went out of their way having a section telling players they didn't need to buy the dice to play the game.

Well, mea culpa. I haven't seen the conversion chart and thus assumed otherwise.

EDIT: But why not just use numbers? Why have task resolution be tied in to a specialized language of funky symbols? It still comes back to being exclusionary rather than inclusionary.

QuoteEDIT: But why not just use numbers? Why have task resolution be tied in to a specialized language of funky symbols? It still comes back to being exclusionary rather than inclusionary.

I feel the same. Some have argued those symbols help with immersion, but they don't work that way for me... they take the game out of my head and put it into the toys in my hand (I actually have a similar gripe about character sheets... but they're pretty much perma-bonded to most players' expectations).

I like DCC but the dice ALMOST set off my 'gimmick' alarm... almost.
For one thing they're pre-existing sorts and can easily be used in other games.
I might happily draw up a 7, 14, 24, 30, etc. entry wandering monster chart for my BRP games. No symbol conversion chart necessary.
There are also simple ways to use more common polyhedrals to get those rolls... or the free Crawler's Companion app that lends pretty great support for DCC.

The game cards and symbol dice and whatnot for WFRP 3 on the other hand... those DO feel like a play for 'toy value' and tactile experience... not that those keep it from being an RPG... but they do add board-game elements that I don't think are as easily dropped if I don't want them.
FFG makes their dough selling lots of cardboard with pretty pictures, so it figures they'd go with what has worked for them in the past. It just isn't my taste so I'll abstain.