Quote from: thecasualoblivion;688542Maybe for a rules light system, but for something heavy like 3E/4E, GURPS or Rolemaster I doubt it.

If a system is too heavy to prep for except scripted adventures then its not something I'm interested in running.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;688542Maybe for a rules light system, but for something heavy like 3E/4E, GURPS or Rolemaster I doubt it.

It has nothing to do with the amount of rules. If you are worried about coming up with stat blocks, steal them. Get them from books, modules, use those character generators that are supposed to be so fast and easy. Doesn't matter. It's not for publication, so you really don't have to care where a particular stat block comes from.

Besides, if an NPC takes that much time to create, it's going to take that time to generate no matter what, whatever form of adventure scenario you choose to create.

Remember: the notion you put forward is that creating a sandbox is much more work for the DM, enough additional work that people are lazy and just don't do it because it's too daunting and complex and/or time consuming. That's the notion that it is this super hard endeavor I'm willing to bust for you.

Interested?

There's a small but loud minority of D&D player base that, because 3.5e which they liked had bad design, and 4e which they didn't like had good design, have decided that good game design is an axiomatically bad thing for D&D. The 5e designers seem to have paid way too much attention to those guys.

I didn't underscore it enough, but I think the AND SOLD qualifier was the key piece people may have missed.

Think about it...

As a player, once you have the rules you like and the setting you like already purchased, what other products might be your next pick?

Likewise, as a publishing company, if you live as a 'publish or die' company, why would you NOT publish modules?

...and if you publish modules why wouldn't roughly half of them be scripted affairs?

It all seems really organic to me.

I would generally say that a sandbox campaign benefits from more prep work at the beginning and becomes less as you continue (because you have all of these elements you've made/ decided to use floating around already) while a linear campaign requires less initial prep, but then you still keep having to put more or less the same amount of prep into subsequent sessions (though, that decreases too, simply because you're more and more familiar with the material)... starting things off linear becomes an attractive option when you're not sure your group is going to stick together, and you can switch to a sandbox mode later usually if that's what you want to do.

Organic, perhaps, but shitty.

I want a starting situation, sure.  But I want choices; don't give me only one thing to do.

* a caravan going to Far Khitai is hiring guards
* a mercenary band is recruiting for a skirmish in West Nowhereistan
* the Temple of the Eager Virgin reports that somebody has stolen the Golden Hootercups of Eternal Perkiness and is offering a reward
* the King is offering a reward for the head of the notorious highwayman Celerus the Nutpuncher
* the village of Post Hole has been attacked by gargoyles and three sheep killed


And I don't want a fixed resolution, either!  I want it to be equally viable for the PCs to hunt down Celerus, for Celerus to defeat them and hold them for ransom, for the PCs to join Celerus and become members of his Squeaky Men, or for one of the PCs to punch Celerus in the nuts and declare that SHE is the new Celerus the Nutpuncher!

The idea of a single adventure with a "correct" conclusion makes me want to puke so hard blood squirts out my ass.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;688542Maybe for a rules light system, but for something heavy like 3E/4E, GURPS or Rolemaster I doubt it.

Nonsense.  "Sandbox" play does not mean you have to have every single creature in the world statted up.  Furthermore, "generic guard captain who is a 3rd level fighter" can be used over and over.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688568I didn't underscore it enough, but I think the AND SOLD qualifier was the key piece people may have missed.

Think about it...

As a player, once you have the rules you like and the setting you like already purchased, what other products might be your next pick?

Likewise, as a publishing company, if you live as a 'publish or die' company, why would you NOT publish modules?

...and if you publish modules why wouldn't roughly half of them be scripted affairs?

I get the publishing angle. But scripted adventures make up 95 per cent or more of published modules. And virtually every piece of adventure design you read about D&D these days offers only scripted, story-based design advice. I understand that's the preferred approach - what I don't get is the virtual extinction of the alternative. It's like the hobby has reached a point, demographically, where certain skills have simply been lost.

The thing is, you can have your cake and eat it too, as a publisher, in this particular case. You can create modules and sell them, AND you can design them in a way that doesn't make them scripted affairs. It's not a strict either/or choice.

Quote from: Imp;688574I would generally say that a sandbox campaign benefits from more prep work at the beginning and becomes less as you continue (because you have all of these elements you've made/ decided to use floating around already) while a linear campaign requires less initial prep, but then you still keep having to put more or less the same amount of prep into subsequent sessions (though, that decreases too, simply because you're more and more familiar with the material)... starting things off linear becomes an attractive option when you're not sure your group is going to stick together, and you can switch to a sandbox mode later usually if that's what you want to do.

That's a fair point. Sandboxes are more work initially. You'll probably want to put as much work into the setup as you would into 2 to 3 adventures. However, you shouldn't have to do nearly as much work after that. And you typically won't be faced with the prospect of having to write a whole adventure from scratch in the time-frame between two sessions.

It's also worth nothing that the 'adventure as TV episode' model usually calls for soliciting extensive feedback from players in terms of deep backgrounds, contacts, and aspirations. You don't have to do that work with sandboxes, because the way you'll figure out what the PCs want is by what they actually do.

I think part of the trick with sandbox is just-in-time DMing.  You have enough of an idea of what is where to describe to the players so they can make choices.  But you don't have to flesh anything out unless they go there.  I like to have a folder of pregen NPCs that could work in multiple places.  A good set of random tables help too.

At the end of the session i simply ask the players what they are planning to do next time and plan accordingly. Simples.

Quote from: One Horse Town;688556There's a small but loud minority of D&D player base that, because 3.5e which they liked had bad design, and 4e which they didn't like had good design, have decided that good game design is an axiomatically bad thing for D&D. The 5e designers seem to have paid way too much attention to those guys.

While I had some fun with 4E, I had the attitude that it's design was awesome - it tanked D&D, therefore I think it's design was pretty crappy.  It's design was *rigorous*, but that doesn't mean it succeeded (obviously).  What WotC is rightly doing is realizing that having a system highly balanced over a narrow domain (gridded tactical skirmish boardgame) is not a good thing for D&D.  D&D is much more than just combat.

The problem 4vengers have with 5E is that is doesn't treat their narrow gameplay as the Holy One True Way, but that there is an entire ecosystem of gameplay approaches that D&D should support. 5E looks to do that, but we'll see.  I'm hopeful.

Quote from: Benoist;688584The thing is, you can have your cake and eat it too, as a publisher, in this particular case. You can create modules and sell them, AND you can design them in a way that doesn't make them scripted affairs. It's not a strict either/or choice.

Paizo figured this out.  Their APs are a big ole situation ready for the PCs to muck around in, but there's a narrative throughout that is fun for people to read.

Quote from: One Horse Town;688597At the end of the session i simply ask the players what they are planning to do next time and plan accordingly. Simples.

If your planning includes buying a product from a publisher every other month or so, then you're still part of the target audience.