Quote from: jadrax;684598Sorry I think I was unclear. I meant that was the cycle you had gone through to state that 'Paladin should be read as "knight" - there's no crossover with a cleric.' rather than a cycle you were explicitly advocating.

OK. Still think knight best sums up the class. There's some -Christian -religious associations, just as there were with real knights, but Paladin is a pretty distinct concept from cleric. 'Holy warrior basically means 'military fighter that the church approves of.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684600OK. Still think knight best sums up the class. There's some -Christian -religious associations, just as there were with real knights, but Paladin is a pretty distinct concept from cleric. 'Holy warrior basically means 'military fighter that the church approves of.

The term you're looking for is Templar.

I think one of the huge problems is that because there was no 'Priest' class per say, all of the religious people in Homlet got shoved into cleric (well except the druid) an thus every priest in the game for ever more became a member of the 'vampire hunting elite warrior class we made up for that one campaign'.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684562No one would mistake Lancelot for a priest.

Well, you might in that one part of Excalibur where Percival runs into him ranting to a crowd of peasants how Jesus has forsaken the land.

Quote from: LibraryLass;684623Well, you might in that one part of Excalibur where Percival runs into him ranting to a crowd of peasants how Jesus has forsaken the land.

Yes, it was a bad example because Lance got his legends all mixed up with Tristan by Mallory, and then got himself to an abbotry or found Jesus in the woods can you tell Mallory school not my fav version of the legends?). Blar. Egg on my face.

Anyway, the 2nd ed player's hb ( only have that, first ed DMG, 2e mm, and the planescape line, and green books, so its the only d&d I have that mentions a paladin)  gives several examples of heroes throughout legend and history who could be called paladins: Roland and the 12 Peers of Charlemagne, Sir Lancelot, Sir Gawain, and Sir Galahad.

I no longer own UA, but I have the Dragon issue Paladins orig appeared in, and this jibes with that desc. I plyed in one short 3rd ed campaign, but that was the end of my association with woTC besides a game of Gamma World, so I don't know how much the class has been mangled from its origins. I have my pref'd ed, so I admittedly view the game thru that lens.

Quote from: Rincewind1;684603The term you're looking for is Templar.

That would be a mercenary/banker class;)

Quote from: TristramEvans;684643That would be a mercenary/banker class;)

Well touche, but the theoretical concept is something I always imagine a paladin as, alongside a good spicing of Teutonic Order stylistics/"holier than thou and got papers to prove it" behaviour.

Quote from: Rincewind1;684656Well touche, but the theoretical concept is something I always imagine a paladin as, alongside a good spicing of Teutonic Order stylistics/"holier than thou and got papers to prove it" behaviour.

Yeah, fair enough. Arthurian legends are to those as western movies are to real cowboys.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684657Yeah, fair enough. Arthurian legends are to those as western movies are to real cowboys.

There is a reason that my two favorite movies are Excalibur and Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

JG

This issue always fascinated me ever since I started gaming. When I had buns in the oven and unhappy enuff not to play, I read the players books anyway. And it always lead to mre confusion.
The paladin is less based on legend more on a literary character ( i know I read the book but I dont remember it much, was it that bad or the hormones and spawn kicking that made it less than memorable? Lol)
 The cleric was supposed to be warrior priests right? At least in 1st.
The Paladin was closer to an ideal of a knight.
Depends on edition and world setting. If a paladin is an ideal warrior, wouldnt mordred as seen in movie and popular literature fit the bill?
So after all the input how do you see the class now?
How I see it as a seminewbie, Paladins are special knights who dedicate themselves to an ideal or Deity, which allows them to grow in certain ways, healing and spells. Iirc, Paladins can only do magic ie spells at a certain level and to a certain level. Iirc the rational at least in first ed. Was up to 4th was actually done by force of will of the caster. I think. Have that right.
Much of the "purity" of 1st lvl was lost later when people tried to forcefit ideas into the classes.
Thanks for forcing thr mental exercise

Paladins are of St. Cuthbert.  If you have no St. Cuthbert, kindly excise Paladins from your game.  

That is all.

Quote from: Teazia;688353Paladins are of St. Cuthbert.  If you have no St. Cuthbert, kindly excise Paladins from your game.  

That is all.

Eff that noise. Cuthbert is half the reason paladins are assumed to be such awful sticks in the mud. The man himself is semidivine paraquat.

Quote from: LibraryLass;688373Eff that noise. Cuthbert is half the reason paladins are assumed to be such awful sticks in the mud. The man himself is semidivine paraquat.

Lol.  The concept of Paladins from 0 to 3e was sprung directly from him, warts and all. Might as well play the real thing, otherwise a cleric is probably better.  The UA cavalier was the obvious solution to the paladin problem, but it introduced a new realm of issues.

Quote from: Teazia;688403Lol.  The concept of Paladins from 0 to 3e was sprung directly from him, warts and all. Might as well play the real thing, otherwise a cleric is probably better.  The UA cavalier was the obvious solution to the paladin problem, but it introduced a new realm of issues.

If you get the Mace of St. Cuthbert along for the ride, sure I'll play ol' Cuth.

But the 1e Pally has more in common with Sir Galahad and Song of Roland than anything else.  IIRC, the entire push to move the Paladin to being under the Cavalier was due to the Knight of the Round Table connection.

I like knights.


I just don't think a paladin needs to be a knight.