Quote from: deadDMwalking;685415Anyone who thinks the OGL was a bad idea is wrong.  It had an amazing effect.  It was a great long-term strategy.  

But it was holding a tiger by the tail.  When you find yourself in that position, don't let go.  

Wizards of the Coast abandoned their position as the 'main producer' of quality content when they abandoned 3.x.  As a member of the 'core audience' of 3.x, I was deeply offended by every aspect of the conversion.  As a long-time subscriber to Dragon and Dungeon, yanking the licenses was unforgivable.  Replacing a print product with an electronic only product - even worse.  I like 'dead tree products'.  I don't mind having a PDF in addition to my print products, but I like gaming books.  4th edition with the heavy emphasis on electronic media was all kinds of bad - if I wanted to play with a computer, I could play Neverwinter Nights.  

Trying to bury 3rd edition considering the OGL made it a 'forever' product was a mistake.  It reeks of hubris.  They mistook enjoyment of the game for loyalty to WotC.  They weren't big enough to kill the edition they had given life to.  Thinking they were was their mistake.  

But if they continued to support the OGL, or even CONTINUE it with 4th edition, they likely would have continued to be successful.  3rd party publishers didn't support 4th edition because the license was terrible - they had no choice but to become competitors.  

If 4th edition were a better game and they had done this a few years later when 3.x was really losing it's shine, even then it might not have worked.  But as it was, it was retarded.  But the OGL - that was brilliant.

I'm desperately curious about Wizard's train of thought here. Was it about getting on Hasbro's good side? Was it just typical mismanagement bullshit? I've heard there were people at Wizards who hated the OGL from day one and finally got a chance to 'put the nail in it's coffin', did they just ascend to power?  

Because those people didn't really grasp what open source does, did they?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;685415Anyone who thinks the OGL was a bad idea is wrong.  It had an amazing effect.  It was a great long-term strategy.  

But it was holding a tiger by the tail.  When you find yourself in that position, don't let go.  

Wizards of the Coast abandoned their position as the 'main producer' of quality content when they abandoned 3.x.  As a member of the 'core audience' of 3.x, I was deeply offended by every aspect of the conversion.  As a long-time subscriber to Dragon and Dungeon, yanking the licenses was unforgivable.  Replacing a print product with an electronic only product - even worse.  I like 'dead tree products'.  I don't mind having a PDF in addition to my print products, but I like gaming books.  4th edition with the heavy emphasis on electronic media was all kinds of bad - if I wanted to play with a computer, I could play Neverwinter Nights.  

Trying to bury 3rd edition considering the OGL made it a 'forever' product was a mistake.  It reeks of hubris.  They mistook enjoyment of the game for loyalty to WotC.  They weren't big enough to kill the edition they had given life to.  Thinking they were was their mistake.  

But if they continued to support the OGL, or even CONTINUE it with 4th edition, they likely would have continued to be successful.  3rd party publishers didn't support 4th edition because the license was terrible - they had no choice but to become competitors.  

If 4th edition were a better game and they had done this a few years later when 3.x was really losing it's shine, even then it might not have worked.  But as it was, it was retarded.  But the OGL - that was brilliant.

I agree with this 100%.

Quote from: JonWake;685552I've heard there were people at Wizards who hated the OGL from day one and finally got a chance to 'put the nail in it's coffin', did they just ascend to power?  

This appears to be the case. If you look at all the people at WotC who were talking about the OGL and evergreen products in the 1999-2001 timeframe, you'll notice that virtually all of them had left the company by 2003. There was a major ideological shift within the company that led to the creation of 3.5 and, later, 4E.

I talk about this in greater detail here. If you click through there, make sure to scroll down to where Ryan Dancey comments on the post.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;685415Anyone who thinks the OGL was a bad idea is wrong.  It had an amazing effect.  It was a great long-term strategy.  

But it was holding a tiger by the tail.  When you find yourself in that position, don't let go.  

Wizards of the Coast abandoned their position as the 'main producer' of quality content when they abandoned 3.x.  As a member of the 'core audience' of 3.x, I was deeply offended by every aspect of the conversion.  As a long-time subscriber to Dragon and Dungeon, yanking the licenses was unforgivable.  Replacing a print product with an electronic only product - even worse.  I like 'dead tree products'.  I don't mind having a PDF in addition to my print products, but I like gaming books.  4th edition with the heavy emphasis on electronic media was all kinds of bad - if I wanted to play with a computer, I could play Neverwinter Nights.  

Trying to bury 3rd edition considering the OGL made it a 'forever' product was a mistake.  It reeks of hubris.  They mistook enjoyment of the game for loyalty to WotC.  They weren't big enough to kill the edition they had given life to.  Thinking they were was their mistake.  

But if they continued to support the OGL, or even CONTINUE it with 4th edition, they likely would have continued to be successful.  3rd party publishers didn't support 4th edition because the license was terrible - they had no choice but to become competitors.  

If 4th edition were a better game and they had done this a few years later when 3.x was really losing it's shine, even then it might not have worked.  But as it was, it was retarded.  But the OGL - that was brilliant.

Agreed.

OGL is an excellent idea, as long as you control the "source product" - whatever is needed for others to use their 3rd party supplement with your work. You're basically offloading the whole idea of line support on someone else's shoulders, and they need to worry about their own payment.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;685415Anyone who thinks the OGL was a bad idea is wrong.  It had an amazing effect.  It was a great long-term strategy.  

But it was holding a tiger by the tail.  When you find yourself in that position, don't let go.  

Wizards of the Coast abandoned their position as the 'main producer' of quality content when they abandoned 3.x.  As a member of the 'core audience' of 3.x, I was deeply offended by every aspect of the conversion.  As a long-time subscriber to Dragon and Dungeon, yanking the licenses was unforgivable.  Replacing a print product with an electronic only product - even worse.  I like 'dead tree products'.  I don't mind having a PDF in addition to my print products, but I like gaming books.  4th edition with the heavy emphasis on electronic media was all kinds of bad - if I wanted to play with a computer, I could play Neverwinter Nights.  

Trying to bury 3rd edition considering the OGL made it a 'forever' product was a mistake.  It reeks of hubris.  They mistook enjoyment of the game for loyalty to WotC.  They weren't big enough to kill the edition they had given life to.  Thinking they were was their mistake.  

But if they continued to support the OGL, or even CONTINUE it with 4th edition, they likely would have continued to be successful.  3rd party publishers didn't support 4th edition because the license was terrible - they had no choice but to become competitors.  

If 4th edition were a better game and they had done this a few years later when 3.x was really losing it's shine, even then it might not have worked.  But as it was, it was retarded.  But the OGL - that was brilliant.

This might be the first time ever I agree 100% with deadGMwalking...bloody brilliant post, deadGM, and damn true, too, all of it, as far as I can see.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;685416I think you are spot on Deadgm

I agree too.

And for what its worth, I absolutely love the ddi character generator.

But...

I really wish there was one for 1E/2E.

Quote from: Bill;685580But...

I really wish there was one for 1E/2E.

Do they need one though?

I mean sure if using 2e with all the bells & whistles or, moreso, 2.5e with same, I can kinda see it, I guess, but...

Allthough given the giant number of spells available in late 2e/2.5e, I think you have a point...

Quote from: The Ent;685583Do they need one though?

I mean sure if using 2e with all the bells & whistles or, moreso, 2.5e with same, I can kinda see it, I guess, but...

Allthough given the giant number of spells available in late 2e/2.5e, I think you have a point...

One useful aspect of a good generator is that it has everything you need in the generator, so when your ftr/cleric/wizard is level gaining levels the generator has all the info right there and you just update as you gain a level.

There's the dated AD&D Core 2.0 automator. Wonderful for the time and matched pretty much all my needs. Technically still does.

Only issue is in these modern days I'm spoiled with multi-Gigs of RAM in everything, including phones. And my legacy machine is all kinds of slow in comparison. Further several MS window emulators hiccup when running certain dated software. But when I dig out the old machine the program still runs like a song (a waltz compared to modern happycore, but whatever).

Quote from: Bill;685585One useful aspect of a good generator is that it has everything you need in the generator, so when your ftr/cleric/wizard is level gaining levels the generator has all the info right there and you just update as you gain a level.

Oh I can absolutely see that.
(Half-elf ftr/cl/wz is a chore true!)

Quote from: The Ent;685588Oh I can absolutely see that.
(Half-elf ftr/cl/wz is a chore true!)

And Bard...if its 1E!

Quote from: Bill;685590And Bard...if its 1E!

Oh GAWD, I've never even tried playing/GMing that one. Too scary!

I remember the generator that came with the 2e AD&D CD compilation thing, can't remember what it was called anymore. Had a bunch of the books in a terrible digital format that was slow as balls, but the generator was pretty nice.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;685602I remember the generator that came with the 2e AD&D CD compilation thing, can't remember what it was called anymore. Had a bunch of the books in a terrible digital format that was slow as balls, but the generator was pretty nice.

Someone learn whatever computer language people use these days and write a new one!

I think the one mistake with OGL that was most costly, was the failure to include an expiration date that was far enough in the future to give comfort to third party users that their efforts would not be wasted, but still close enough in time to accommodate the natural cycle of the game.  So, I am talking roughly 15 years into the future (with another grandfathering for hard-copies still on the shelves of FLGS at the expiration date), from the first date of OGL release.

I think 3rd parties would have still produced plenty under that scenario of 15 years to enjoy sales, and WOTC would have not had the hassle of releasing their IP for all time into essentially the public domain.

It's the infinite nature of the OGL that causes the harm...it benefits others long after it no longer benefits WOTC.