Quote from: Exploderwizard;684769In addition to electronic support being cumbersome as a necessity to tabletop gaming, there is the subscription issue.

Tabletop gaming is a hobby that one can enjoy and play with for a long time without buying new stuff. Once something like the DDI becomes a needed part of the experience, what happens when the provider no longer offers the service?

In this case, your "books" literally CAN be taken away from you once you have made the transition from hobbyist to passive consumer. You are at the mercy of whatever the provider chooses to offer via the electric nipple or you can wake up from the matrix, stick to your dice, pencil & paper, and remain a hobbyist.

I didn't say it was a good idea...I said it was easily accessible to new players.  We can debate if 4e was a good system, or if using DDI was a good idea for the game overall, but I think those are different issues.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684774When WOTC decides to pull electronic support for 4E how accessible and friendly will it be then?

I'm not really sure why that is relevant to this topic.  The question was whether it was accessible while it was the main D&D edition.  Why would it be important, for that issue, whether a dead version of the game remains accessible? They try to attract new players to the currently supported game of course.  

QuoteIf a game is to survive beyone the shelf life set by its creator, it needs to be sustainable without support from that creator.

The survivability of a dead game is, again, a different topic that the accessibility to new players of a living game.

Quote from: Mistwell;684914I didn't say it was a good idea...I said it was easily accessible to new players.  We can debate if 4e was a good system, or if using DDI was a good idea for the game overall, but I think those are different issues.

We've somehow game from the complexity of low-level characters to the accessibility of online tools.

The point of the comparison of PCs over various editions is that low-level PCs with lots and lots of skills and talents and feats and abilities can be a barrier to new players, and to those who prefer a more rules-light game. People who turned away from D&D in the WotC era because of complexity may be enticed back by the ease of play offered by basic character setups.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684769You are at the mercy of whatever the provider chooses to offer via the electric nipple or you can wake up from the matrix, stick to your dice, pencil & paper, and remain a hobbyist.

Well said. One of the things I love about this hobby is the ridiculous amount of fun you can have with the simplest of tools. If it reaches the stage that you have to consult a website to make something playable, it's stopped being playable.

Quote from: The Traveller;684918Well said. One of the things I love about this hobby is the ridiculous amount of fun you can have with the simplest of tools. If it reaches the stage that you have to consult a website to make something playable, it's stopped being playable.

What hogwash.  Have we now gone from "4e wasn't D&D" to "4e wasn't playable"? Come on man, dislike 4e all you want, but it was playable, and was played by thousands.  Shit, the nerdrage over 4e seems to have reached some epic levels these days around here.  You're game is not only badwrongfun, but you never played it because I don't think it could be played! LOL

Quote from: Mistwell;684919What hogwash.  Have we now gone from "4e wasn't D&D" to "4e wasn't playable"? Come on man, dislike 4e all you want, but it was playable, and was played by thousands.  Shit, the nerdrage over 4e seems to have reached some epic levels these days around here.  You're game is not only badwrongfun, but you never played it because I don't think it could be played! LOL

Its simple logic. If the electronic support is a good part of what makes the game playable, and the people running the games don't have control over whats in that content or how long it remains available then your game is only playable while the producers say it is.

Fuck    that     shit.

Thats an MMO. When blizzard decides to shut down the servers, no more WOW. Hobbyists don't have to put up with that.

I don't think 4e is unplayable without DDI. Its playable but a hassle, and if you don't use every splat ever published it gets easier. Even using every splat book its more of it just being a pain to cross reference everything rather than unplayable.

Its not as simple as Pre 3.x, but the chargen was about on par with 3.x, and in my opinion had less hassle DURING play than 3.x did. Also, I think creating other portions of the game outside of characters (NPCs, monsters, etc.) was much simpler.

I would probably put the chargen at 3.x/Hero level, and most other things at actually below that.

Unless you are going to tell me 3.x and Hero are unplayable now.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684931Its simple logic. If the electronic support is a good part of what makes the game playable, and the people running the games don't have control over whats in that content or how long it remains available then your game is only playable while the producers say it is.

Fuck    that     shit.

Thats an MMO. When blizzard decides to shut down the servers, no more WOW. Hobbyists don't have to put up with that.

I agree the eventual yanking of the DDI for 4e could hamper future games (I have no idea how far in the future that is, and if they will release a downloadable version or release it to a third party to continue on or what).  But, we're talking about in the past to right now.  The idea that, some day electronic support will be yanked, that means the game right now is not playable, is ludicrous.  

4e is a very playable game.  Again, no longer my favorite edition, but it's some high level stupidity to go around right now claiming it's not playable because you fear what might happen in the future.  "Fuck that shit" is, again, a different thing from "It's not playable".  I'm cool with the "Fuck that shit, that's a level of risk I am not willing to take."  I am not cool with "The game isn't playable".

It will never cease to amaze me that some people seem actually offended by RPGs others like, that they do not like.  And that irrational emotion comes out in threads like this, where people claim 4e isn't playable.

Quote from: Mistwell;684937It will never cease to amaze me that some people seem actually offended by RPGs others like, that they do not like.  And that irrational emotion comes out in threads like this, where people claim 4e isn't playable.

I don't care about D&D. Whether it conquers the world or dies in the nearest available conflagration bothers me not in the slightest. When you yourself admit that

Quote from: Mistwell;684937I agree the eventual yanking of the DDI for 4e could hamper future games

That's a problem. No ifs or buts about it, that is a game that is way too reliant on outside support, and I speak from as near an impartial perspective as this hobby makes possible. Imagine playing chess and having to refer to a website to figure out how to best set up your pieces. It wouldn't last a week. And from the sounds of it, it's a miracle 4e lasted as long as it did.

I think an underrated and important aspect of an RPG is how easy it is to play if you're given the book, pencil, paper, and dice.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;684959I think an underrated and important aspect of an RPG is how easy it is to play if you're given the book, pencil, paper, and dice.

Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the things that held 4E back was the reliance on minis and a grid. WotC is making support for theatre of the mind a core element of Next, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Quote from: Mistwell;684619LOL your inability to read my attitude is not my problem.  Tizzy? Where did you get that.  As for my comment being useless - lots of people are talking about it, some agree, some do not, so you're conclusion about the comment is provably false.

Ahh, I see. The point of your responses is to read attitude, not a cogent argument. This explains quite a bit, especially since your comparison has zero validity as true parity exists in available automators for every edition. Also explains why you find it useful that people talk about your comment, regardless of its merits. You just like the noise around you like an attention whore.

I now see why white knighting is your thing. Without conflict somewhere around you there is naught but the yawning void. Essentially "to argue, therefore I am."

Well might as well make you useful, since you have nothing to contribute currently. I do have some vegetable clippings that could use an advocate, if you're free: stock, compost, or other?

Quote from: Opaopajr;684963Ahh, I see. The point of your responses is to read attitude, not a cogent argument.

So now I ask the obvious question: are you just an asshole, an idiot, or both?

I was responding to a question ABOUT my attitude.  When someone claims to have read my attitude and comes to a wrong conclusion, I correct them.  The point of my responses is not to read my attitude - I didn't raise the topic of my attitude at all.

QuoteThis explains quite a bit, especially since your comparison has zero validity as true parity exists in available automators for every edition.

Yes, automators exist for all editions, and no, that does not in any way equate with parity.

And you saying that tells me, with certainty, you've never used the current version of the DDI.  Nobody who had used it would be so foolish a to claim prior games have achieved any level of electronic support parity with the DDI.

QuoteAlso explains why you find it useful that people talk about your comment, regardless of its merits. You just like the noise around you like an attention whore.

I didn't say I found it useful, I said the proof that others found it useful was in the responses.  If it were an entirely useless thing, everyone would just ignore it.

QuoteI now see why white knighting is your thing. Without conflict somewhere around you there is naught but the yawning void. Essentially "to argue, therefore I am."

Yeah it couldn't possibly be I liked 4e and think you have no fucking clue what you're talking about when it comes to issues about 4e.  

QuoteWell might as well make you useful, since you have nothing to contribute currently. I do have some vegetable clippings that could use an advocate, if you're free: stock, compost, or other?

Compost mang, compost.  Just remember to water it frequently, and turn it often as well.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684931Its simple logic. If the electronic support is a good part of what makes the game playable, and the people running the games don't have control over whats in that content or how long it remains available then your game is only playable while the producers say it is.

Fuck    that     shit.

Thats an MMO. When blizzard decides to shut down the servers, no more WOW. Hobbyists don't have to put up with that.

DMed 4e for a few years and I have never even seen what DDI looks like.  We just used books like with every other rpg.  I will grant that 4e combat is kind of a pain in the ass, but lack of electronic support is not what caused it to be a pain in the ass.  It is tracking the constantly shifting, short duration status effects that makes it that way.

Quote from: Mistwell;684533You think it's easier to read a bunch of books to make a character, rather than PUSHING A BUTTON?

4e character generation is the easiest character generation of any of the versions of D&D other that Basic D&D, if you have access to the DDI.  It does it all for you, and whatever level of complexity you want, it comes down to just a minimal number of choices from pushing buttons.

The reason the sheet is so long, is because it reprints the full text of EVERYTHING on the sheet.  Seriously, there is a full sized index card explaining all the rules for your friggen magic sword.  And while you can count "sheets", most of the sheets get cut into index cards and laid out the way you want them in front of you, with many out of sight but available in case you need them.

This, while lengthy, is very accessible for the new player.  Just about everything they need is there, always.  You don't even need a PHB to bring to the game.  Almost all the rules particular to your character, are right there in the section for the thing you might have a question about.

However, as others have said, the game is very inaccessible if you do not have access to the DDI.  Which is why almost all groups, the DM had a subscription at the least, and usually they shared that account access with the players so they could generate and level their characters.

You may call me a luddite, grumpy, whatever, but if a game requires that I use some kind of software, I will not play it. Period. I want my pencils, my eraser, my sheet of paper, and my dice, thank you very much.