Quote from: Sacrosanct;684542If you expand "DDI" to "electronic support", than there are easier and faster ones.  Some of the JAVA character generation programs out there are very fast and easy.

And if you do narrow it down to "officially supported software", then even Core Rules for 2e was very simple and fast.

In the 4e game I am gming right now, one player has an iphone he uses to roll electronic dice, and has an app for his character that is different from ddi.

A second player has a tablet with his character in an app; not sure if its the same as the first guys app, also not ddi.

The three other players use paper; with printouts from ddi of their character sheets.

I have a huge stack of paper; all sorts of stuff I print out. If I was smart I would have a neat binder

Quote from: Mistwell;684533You think it's easier to read a bunch of books to make a character, rather than PUSHING A BUTTON?

4e character generation is the easiest character generation of any of the versions of D&D other that Basic D&D, if you have access to the DDI.  It does it all for you, and whatever level of complexity you want, it comes down to just a minimal number of choices from pushing buttons.

The reason the sheet is so long, is because it reprints the full text of EVERYTHING on the sheet.  Seriously, there is a full sized index card explaining all the rules for your friggen magic sword.  And while you can count "sheets", most of the sheets get cut into index cards and laid out the way you want them in front of you, with many out of sight but available in case you need them.

This, while lengthy, is very accessible for the new player.  Just about everything they need is there, always.  You don't even need a PHB to bring to the game.  Almost all the rules particular to your character, are right there in the section for the thing you might have a question about.

However, as others have said, the game is very inaccessible if you do not have access to the DDI.  Which is why almost all groups, the DM had a subscription at the least, and usually they shared that account access with the players so they could generate and level their characters.

Wtf argument is this? Of course there could be software for every edition simplifying things a lot. Alas, you could very easily in two minutes make a character in "baldur's gate" or "temple of ee".
That does not mean that 3.x was easily accessible for newbies, especially for DMs.

Quote from: xech;684563Wtf argument is this? Of course there could be software for every edition simplifying things a lot. Alas, you could very easily in two minutes make a character in "baldur's gate" or "temple of ee".
That does not mean that 3.x was easily accessible for newbies, especially for DMs.

Idk, I think in a way DDI is more accessible to a younger crowd, who are used to using computer assistance for tons of things.

Even being somewhat younger myself though, I still prefer my character generation to be able to be done paper/pencil though like I did in the late 80s/early 90s when I started.

But man you should see the stuff I do use computers for. Custom character sheets, vehicle sheets, maps, play aids... Its all stuff that I don't NEED to do to run a good game, I just like to do them. And I think that is the level of computer use I'm PERSONALLY comfortable with in a game.

But who knows, I could imagine teenagers and people in their early 20s don't think twice about computer assisted character creation, and for them DDI is super accessible and they don't see the downside. (I've used DDI, the character creation is super simple while using it. I just wouldn't want to personally be tied to it for a game).

Quote from: Bill;684541You don't need the program while you are atually playing; it just creates a character sheet for you.

I am still a 'stack of papers gm' but I love the character generator.

Now that does sound reasonable.
(and it's not like say 3.5 was Easy to maneuver through either)

Quote from: Mistwell;684533You think it's easier to read a bunch of books to make a character, rather than PUSHING A BUTTON?

4e character generation is the easiest character generation of any of the versions of D&D other that Basic D&D, if you have access to the DDI.  It does it all for you, and whatever level of complexity you want, it comes down to just a minimal number of choices from pushing buttons.

This is a useless comment. Anything with an automated process is easier than doing it longhand. And yet the automators for 1e, 2e, etc. are far, far faster than using DDI. Editions must stand on their own merits; automators exist for pretty much all editions.

Your comment is as fruitful as saying printing essays from computer printers is faster than writing it from scratch, ergo MLA is better than Chicago Style citation because Microsoft Word. Total WTFBBQ talk.

Do you ever get bored spinning yourself into a tizzy?

Quote from: Mistwell;684533You think it's easier to read a bunch of books to make a character, rather than PUSHING A BUTTON?

4e character generation is the easiest character generation of any of the versions of D&D other that Basic D&D, if you have access to the DDI.  It does it all for you, and whatever level of complexity you want, it comes down to just a minimal number of choices from pushing buttons.

No, it's not.  After assigning ability scores (a cumbersome task for new players who don't really understand how their classes work), you have to calculate the numbers of Armor Class, defenses, basic attacks, at-will attacks, encounter and daily and utility abilities, skills, initiative, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.  Oh, yeah, healing surges.

It's a huge, convoluted pain in the ass.

Quote from: xech;684563Wtf argument is this? Of course there could be software for every edition simplifying things a lot. Alas, you could very easily in two minutes make a character in "baldur's gate" or "temple of ee".
That does not mean that 3.x was easily accessible for newbies, especially for DMs.

I wasn't talking about 3.x, it's 4e I was talking about.

We're talking about what actually is, as opposed to what there could have been.  And what there actually is, is a game that was almost entirely run around the official electronic interface for character creation.  You COULD make a character without it, and I am sure some did, but I sure never met any of them.  And if you look across the nation, at conventions and online games and "gamers looking for gamers" ads and game stores and every source you can imagine, they will all tell you the same thing: the overwhelming majority of people who played 4e used the DDI, at some point, to create their character.  It is constantly mentioned in the books in fact.

Because that was the case, it was very easily accessible to new players and new GMs.  The electronic tool support was top notch for 4e, and that makes a difference in accessibility.

Quote from: Opaopajr;684595This is a useless comment. Anything with an automated process is easier than doing it longhand. And yet the automators for 1e, 2e, etc. are far, far faster than using DDI. Editions must stand on their own merits; automators exist for pretty much all editions.

Your comment is as fruitful as saying printing essays from computer printers is faster than writing it from scratch, ergo MLA is better than Chicago Style citation because Microsoft Word. Total WTFBBQ talk.

Do you ever get bored spinning yourself into a tizzy?

LOL your inability to read my attitude is not my problem.  Tizzy? Where did you get that.  As for my comment being useless - lots of people are talking about it, some agree, some do not, so you're conclusion about the comment is provably false.

4e was officially built around the DDI.  It *IS* 4e, in a sense.  Unlike previous editions, DDI became inseparable from the game itself, in a way no other edition did.  That was both a boon and a drawback, depending on the issue.  But for character generation, it was a boon.  It was far better and more comprehensive support than anything that came before, for any version of the game.  I used the best of the 3e software, and it was crap compared to the DDI.  And the 1e and 2e ones out there are extremely limited and simply don't produce the level of detail you get from 4e, though more detail would have been useful IF THE TOPIC IS ACCESSIBILITY FOR NEW PLAYERS.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684615No, it's not.  After assigning ability scores (a cumbersome task for new players who don't really understand how their classes work), you have to calculate the numbers of Armor Class, defenses, basic attacks, at-will attacks, encounter and daily and utility abilities, skills, initiative, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.  Oh, yeah, healing surges.

It's a huge, convoluted pain in the ass.

Uh, did you miss the part where I said "if you have access to the DDI" (it's right there in the paragraph you quoted)?  All that stuff is done for you.

I'm actually curious if people replying at this point have ever even seen the DDI in use in it's current form? Not what originally came out, but what's been around for the past two years or so?

Quote from: languagegeek;684327The point stands though. D&D includes in-game logic for why spells can only be cast once per day - it takes time to rememorize / pray for fogotten spells. (...) What I fail to get is the in-game logic for why my fighter can do a cool move only once, then rest for 8 hours to do it again.

But stuff like that has been part of older (A)D&D forever. Paladin's special abilities, lay-on-hands three times per day, etc? The limitation on Cleric's turn undead (in 3e, wasn't it)?

Color me positively surprised as to the direction Next seems to have taken. I like what I see. (But then, I very much liked what WotC previewed in demo rounds after the Big Announcement, one year prior to 3e street date, and I heavily disliked the finished product.)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;684286The actual official character sheet is much more detailed.

Ok, that doesn't look like D&D at all (on first sight and compared to BECMI/AD&D, that is) but is is stylish and it is a huge improvement over the Excel spreadsheet "charm" of the various 3.x sheets.

Quote from: Mistwell;684620Uh, did you miss the part where I said "if you have access to the DDI" (it's right there in the paragraph you quoted)?  All that stuff is done for you.

I'm actually curious if people replying at this point have ever even seen the DDI in use in it's current form? Not what originally came out, but what's been around for the past two years or so?

If you need software to make chargen simple, than it's a shit system.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;684754If you need software to make chargen simple, than it's a shit system.

I disagree with that. I don't like 4e, but I now believe that software is just a tool to help make gaming more convenient (and hopefully, fun). The problem, is that even great software is not enough to make a shit game into a great game. And the 4e software did not change the fact that combat in 4e takes fucking forever.

I also believe that creating characters in D&D should not always be a chore. I play 3.5 right now, and I think it's a great game...but it has one huge problem.

3.x character creation takes way too long, even for simple characters.

5e needs to avoid this flaw, by making the game with more modular amounts of detail and complexity (going from simple to complex), while still making it work for the AD&D, OD&D, Basic D&D, and 3.x player base.

If WoTC was smart, they'd cast aside the 4e crowd in regards to the D&D trademark. Just let the 4e crowd have a separate non-D&D fantasy roleplaying game of their own. Then fully embrace the OGL for 5e. That's the only chance that WoTC has to save themselves, but I don't think they're smart enough or far-sighted enough to do that. So basically, they're fucked. :pundit:

Quote from: Mistwell;684618We're talking about what actually is, as opposed to what there could have been.  And what there actually is, is a game that was almost entirely run around the official electronic interface for character creation.  You COULD make a character without it, and I am sure some did, but I sure never met any of them.  And if you look across the nation, at conventions and online games and "gamers looking for gamers" ads and game stores and every source you can imagine, they will all tell you the same thing: the overwhelming majority of people who played 4e used the DDI, at some point, to create their character.  It is constantly mentioned in the books in fact.

Because that was the case, it was very easily accessible to new players and new GMs.  The electronic tool support was top notch for 4e, and that makes a difference in accessibility.

In addition to electronic support being cumbersome as a necessity to tabletop gaming, there is the subscription issue.

Tabletop gaming is a hobby that one can enjoy and play with for a long time without buying new stuff. Once something like the DDI becomes a needed part of the experience, what happens when the provider no longer offers the service?

In this case, your "books" literally CAN be taken away from you once you have made the transition from hobbyist to passive consumer. You are at the mercy of whatever the provider chooses to offer via the electric nipple or you can wake up from the matrix, stick to your dice, pencil & paper, and remain a hobbyist.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;684754If you need software to make chargen simple, than it's a shit system.

Yes and No.


The system itself is fine.


Its the 'sell a ton of books' business strategy that is shit.

Too many books speading out what should be in one book.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684769In addition to electronic support being cumbersome as a necessity to tabletop gaming, there is the subscription issue.

Tabletop gaming is a hobby that one can enjoy and play with for a long time without buying new stuff. Once something like the DDI becomes a needed part of the experience, what happens when the provider no longer offers the service?

In this case, your "books" literally CAN be taken away from you once you have made the transition from hobbyist to passive consumer. You are at the mercy of whatever the provider chooses to offer via the electric nipple or you can wake up from the matrix, stick to your dice, pencil & paper, and remain a hobbyist.

4E is very accessible in my opinion.

I have never met a player that could not easily jump into 4E when the character generator was made available to them.

I have met many people that do not like 4E as well, but accessibility was never an issue.