Quote from: TristramEvans;684562No one would mistake Lancelot for a priest.

Lancelot was a priest.

Quote from: jadrax;684564Lancelot was a priest.

Nobody literate.

Quote from: jadrax;684564Lancelot was a priest.

Monk. Eventually.

Quote from: jadrax;684564Lancelot was a priest.

Quote from: The Ent;684575Monk. Eventually.

Yep. More specifically, in D&D terms, he became a cleric after losing his paladinhood, i.e. when he was caught with Guinevere and was effectively stripped of knighthood.

T. H. White had a nice bit where Lancelot is asked to heal someone, but he's torn apart internally because he knows he lusts after the wife of his friend and liege lord. He figures there is no way he will be able to heal because he has fallen from grace.

The film Excalibur addressed the same theme by having a trial by combat for the queen, with Lancelot named as champion. Lancelot literally fights with himself overnight, because trial by combat is not just a matter of skill, but divine favor, and he thinks he's lost that and so will lose the battle. But Boorman didn't really include any explicit features of paladinhood, like the healing, so his Lancelot could be read as just another knight with a strong sense of right and wrong.

Quote from: The Ent;684575Monk. Eventually.

In Mort D'Arthur he is a full priest, even doing the funeral mass for Guinevere.
So he is essentially a fighter that multi-classes into cleric.


What he never is, is anything that resembles a D&D Paladin.

Quote from: jadrax;684582In Mort D'Arthur he is a full priest, even doing the funeral mass for Guinevere.
So he is essentially a fighter that multi-classes into cleric.


What he never is, is anything that resembles a D&D Paladin.

Yeah, he's basically an eponymous Paladin for most of his life. That he later became a hermit monk out of penance ( long after rtiring from adventuring) is really of no relevance, anymore than Guenivere becoming a nun. He certainly never becomes a 'cleric' in D&D terms.

Quote from: talysman;684581Yep. More specifically, in D&D terms, he became a cleric after losing his paladinhood, i.e. when he was caught with Guinevere and was effectively stripped of knighthood.

T. H. White had a nice bit where Lancelot is asked to heal someone, but he's torn apart internally because he knows he lusts after the wife of his friend and liege lord. He figures there is no way he will be able to heal because he has fallen from grace.

The film Excalibur addressed the same theme by having a trial by combat for the queen, with Lancelot named as champion. Lancelot literally fights with himself overnight, because trial by combat is not just a matter of skill, but divine favor, and he thinks he's lost that and so will lose the battle. But Boorman didn't really include any explicit features of paladinhood, like the healing, so his Lancelot could be read as just another knight with a strong sense of right and wrong.

In Camelot, Lancelot heals another knight he wounds in a joust by 'laying on hands. Pretty sure that's where the Paladin ability comes from.

And Excalibur was a really horribly written film. It had a nice soundtrack and some visualsbut the plotting and dialogue was on par with the Transformers films

Quote from: TristramEvans;684589And Excalibur was a really horribly written film. It had a nice soundtrack and some visualsbut the plotting and dialogue was on par with the Transformers films

B-b-but it's old school classic...

Quote from: Rincewind1;684590B-b-but it's old school classic...

Only in the minds of D&D players. Much like Hawke the Slayer.

"Look Kay, I couldn't find your sword, but here's Excalibur!"

And of course number one sin of modern Arthurian stories...Morgan la Fey WAS NOT Mordred's mom. Even THWhite got that right, though the adaptions of him don't.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684585That he later became a hermit monk out of penance ( long after rtiring from adventuring) is really of no relevance, anymore than Guenivere becoming a nun. He certainly never becomes a 'cleric' in D&D terms.

well yes, admittedly that was me just poking fun at your unfortunate choice of phrase, but I think there is a bigger point here.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684585Yeah, he's basically an eponymous Paladin for most of his life.

Your cycle seems to be:

Step One: Paladins are like Knights like Lancelot
Step Two: Actually Paladins are not like Lancelot
Step Three: We need to change Paladins so they are like Lancelot


The problem is, Paladins were not actually based on Lancelot and thus far from being eponymous, Lancelont has very very little in common with the paladin class in the first place.

You might be better of looking at Holger Carlson who the class actually was based upon. although I must admit I never could be bothered, so god knows what the connection is like. Also I am reminded that Gary apparently based Clerics of Victor von Helsing so the only thing you might learn is Gary smoked a whole lot of pot.

Quote from: jadrax;684593well yes, admittedly that was me just poking fun at your unfortunate choice of phrase, but I think there is a bigge


Your cycle seems to be:

Step One: Paladins are like Knights like Lancelot
Step Two: Actually Paladins are not like Lancelot
Step Three: We need to change Paladins so they are like Lancelot

What are you talking about? I said, and stand by the first statement. The other two are your inventions, nothing to do with what I said. And no, paladins don't need to be changed to be more like Lancelot ( or Galahad, the example of a Paladin in the 2e phb). I would ditch the class altogether.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684587In Camelot, Lancelot heals another knight he wounds in a joust by 'laying on hands. Pretty sure that's where the Paladin ability comes from.

It is possible, but I am pretty sure Charlemagne did the same, and possibly the Twelve Peers as well. The origins of the term are actually Jewish.

Quote from: TristramEvans;684594What are you talking about? I said, and stand by the first statement. The other two are your inventions, nothing to do with what I said.

Sorry I think I was unclear. I meant that was the cycle you had gone through to state that 'Paladin should be read as "knight" - there's no crossover with a cleric.' rather than a cycle you were explicitly advocating.

Quote from: jadrax;684596It is possible, but I am pretty sure Charlemagne did the same, and possibly the Twelve Peers as well. The origins of the term are actually Jewish.

Gygax never showed an inclination for that level of research. All of D&D seemed to come from 60s films and fantasy paperbacks. Fire ball spell - corman's Pit& Pendulum. Cleric class-hammer horror films D&DS races -Tolkien D&DS magic -Vance

But yeah, if were going to the origin of the term, Charlamagne's aurthurian proxies are it.