Quote from: Bill;684515True; I like 2e thief skills better.

One could also allow a 1E thief to move points around without any real trouble I think.

That'd certainly improve matters, yeah

Quote from: Haffrung;684497Then the real culprit is free access to magic items and item creation.

I don't think this necessarily follows, but absolutely access to magic items at the very least exacerbates the situation, so it's not worth arguing.  I do think that if the 'DM is going to have sole discretion' on how magical items are discovered, it really makes sense to think about how magical items enter the game world.  If magical items cannot be created, they should be rare, and you probably shouldn't give every orc captain a +2 longsword (heck, you probably shouldn't have any generic items).  If magical items can be created by SOMEBODY, then it doesn't make sense that they're only found in treasure hoards.  Why would someone make them if they couldn't benefit (either by selling them or giving them away to people that support their goals).  3.x might not have the best possible solution to magical items, but they at least deserve credit for considering the impact of magical item creation in the world and actually presenting a way to make it happen.  

Quote from: Haffrung;684497And it looks like Next is dealing with that decisively by making magic items rare and given out only at the discretion of the DM. But we don't hear about that from theory-wanks. All we hear are arguments that the only solution to balance is adopting the 4e model of universal, generic abilities.

I have no idea who you've been talking to, but I've had lots of discussions on how to address balance issues in numerous corners of the web, and I haven't met anybody who suggests universal generic abilities.  But I don't hang with people who play 4th edition.  I'm not saying it's not possible, but there are all kinds of ways to 'fix' the problem without universal generic abilities.  

You can find some of mine here:
http://www.dndarchive.com/forums/rules-game/deaddms-35-houserules

The difficulty with the 2e model is that many players will pump all their points into one or two abilities. This means that the thief will have a couple of things they're good at and a whole bunch of things they're bad at. What we want though is for thieves to have a whole bunch of stuff they're good at. Abilities that have a 15% chance of success, but failure means you are now in a very awkward confrontation with some passing orcs, are trap abilities.

I think the correct solution is one I read on this site some time ago. Any character can sneak up on people or find traps by simply describing a sensible approach to the GM. Thief abilities are therefore extreme parkour ninja shit that let the character do things that other characters would find impossible. Thieves don't have move quietly, they have move silently, so on a successful roll they are totally undetectable even across snow, leaves, gravel. Thieves don't have hide behind cover, they have hide in shadows, so on a successful roll they are totally invisible even out in the open. Thieves don't have climb walls they have scale sheer surface, so on a successful roll they can get up even the sheerest rock face without needing rope or pitons.

And if the task is one that ordinary characters can already try to do, the thief % can be used as a kind of saving throw if something goes wrong.

Quote from: soviet;684543The difficulty with the 2e model is that many players will pump all their points into one or two abilities. This means that the thief will have a couple of things they're good at and a whole bunch of things they're bad at. What we want though is for thieves to have a whole bunch of stuff they're good at. Abilities that have a 15% chance of success, but failure means you are now in a very awkward confrontation with some passing orcs, are trap abilities.

I think the correct solution is one I read on this site some time ago. Any character can sneak up on people or find traps by simply describing a sensible approach to the GM. Thief abilities are therefore extreme parkour ninja shit that let the character do things that other characters would find impossible. Thieves don't have move quietly, they have move silently, so on a successful roll they are totally undetectable even across snow, leaves, gravel. Thieves don't have hide behind cover, they have hide in shadows, so on a successful roll they are totally invisible even out in the open. Thieves don't have climb walls they have scale sheer surface, so on a successful roll they can get up even the sheerest rock face without needing rope or pitons.

And if the task is one that ordinary characters can already try to do, the thief % can be used as a kind of saving throw if something goes wrong.

Thats pretty much what I do; thievs are capable at their thief sills, and the roll is for 'doing it better' if that makes sense.

Quote from: Bill;684544Thats pretty much what I do; thievs are capable at their thief sills, and the roll is for 'doing it better' if that makes sense.

Now that I think about it, it might even have been you I stole it from!

Quote from: soviet;684546Now that I think about it, it might even have been you I stole it from!

Steal away!

I see great tips here all the time.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;684521I do think that if the 'DM is going to have sole discretion' on how magical items are discovered, it really makes sense to think about how magical items enter the game world.  If magical items cannot be created, they should be rare, and you probably shouldn't give every orc captain a +2 longsword (heck, you probably shouldn't have any generic items).  If magical items can be created by SOMEBODY, then it doesn't make sense that they're only found in treasure hoards.  Why would someone make them if they couldn't benefit (either by selling them or giving them away to people that support their goals).

They're created by obsessive, weird mages who devote years of their lives to experimenting with mystic energies in their laboratories. These are not the same chaps who traipse around caves and ruined castles blasting monsters and demons. By deciding to become an adventurer, you're forsaking the life of a lab monkey.

As for who the items are created for, well, many will be created for the wizard himself. Some will be for close colleagues or sponsors. Champions of the realm in times of  need. Sinister minions. The idea that magic wands and swords are workaday commodities crafted and sold like shoes and gourds is one of the lamest things that happened to D&D.

Quote from: Haffrung;684561They're created by obsessive, weird mages who devote years of their lives to experimenting with mystic energies in their laboratories. These are not the same chaps who traipse around caves and ruined castles blasting monsters and demons. By deciding to become an adventurer, you're forsaking the life of a lab monkey.

Not to obtuse, but if this is how you have magical items being created in your game, why can't the PCs go meet these people?  Or can they?  Have they ever tried?  How do they make magical items?  Do they have to be high-level wizards?  How did they get to be high-level wizards if they didn't go adventuring?  If they aren't high level adventurers, how did they get access to the magic required?  

Magical items are not shoes or gourds in 3.x, but the 3.x model at least makes more sense than most approaches to the game.  If items cannot be created but are very common, there is an incongruity which damages versimilitude.  

I'm not saying that 3.x got magic items right - but I am saying that their approach is at least internally consistent.  

I'm all for better approaches, but they need to at leat address the issue of how items are created.  Depending on the answer to that question, there will be ramifications for the game world.  Failure to take that into accout is likely to result in a world that appears 'fake'.

Its been my experience that any player of Magic-Users who relies on single "save or die" spells tends to get fucked up very badly as soon as he runs into people who save; whereas magic-users who rely on buffing themselves up with a series of defenses and clever attacks (and especially, using magic that doesn't allow for saving throws) tend to be the ones who do well.

RPGPundit

Add more booze and bongs to your LAN party. A little buzz goes a long way to STFU the whiners.

I knew a 3e GM whose house rule required you to do a vodka shot before opening the book to look up anything. Best damn 3e GM I knew.