Quote from: Rincewind1;684173Let's assume a 10th level MU (and yes, I know they aren't commonplace, but nobody says that wizard's too powerful on low levels).

So we've got 4 circle 1 spells, 3 of 2 and 3rd circle, and 2 of 4th and 5th.

Let's say one spell from 3th is out for Clairaudience - after all the wizard needs to know the heroes are coming somehow.

1st circle buffs:

Protection from Good
Shield

2nd circle buffs:
Invisibility
Mirror Image (this one cast when the door open, though)

3rd circle:
Fly
Protection from Normal Missiles

Offensive spells:

Level one:

2x Magic Missile

Level 2:
Web

Level Three:

Level Four:
Fire Trap (Preferrably supported by Web)
Ice Storm
Or 2x Ice Storm
Level 5:
2x Cone of Cold? Or 1x Cone of Cold 1x Cloudkill

And yes, this can be countered by tactics and some magic from the heroes. But let's not say that a lone Fighter without any magical items will just walk in and slap the bitch.

That said, of course, at the same time - the "glass cannoness" of a wizard shows here, since after all that, he's pretty much going "beep beep, out of fuel" for the rest of the day.

Why bother with all those spells.  Just use Polymorph other and turn the fighter into a bug, then step on him. Or maybe turn him into a mouse, put him in a cage, and save him for your pet owl.

It's certain players that still sit there, with their paper in hand, Dr Pepper in the other; and they want to compete and play a game. For kills. Or whatever. I've basically said "Kills are for you to keep track of." Because quite frankly, that's not what we're designing our own RPG for.

It's a deep desire of mine to draw them away from the idea that this is a "game" and more of a cooperative campaign. I like the idea of a collective of players trying to achieve a goal. However, some players are just hungup on someone casting a spell. I appreciate this because I'm going to implement "Play your own character."

Initially, I'd like them to not complain and actually think about how their party can most effectively defeat the Wizard and Dragon that have them trapped. I'll be GMing, and I don't want to be nice. But I don't want to "power emod." Which is also, alongside something being "unfair" or "fair", something the player(who wants to deal the most damage) will attempt guilt tripping me of. But only when things don't goes how he thinks they should. I like running things. I want to present them with challenges that may kill one of them.

@Benoist Oh yeah, man. I was young then. But that's the fun kind of Halo. Now Halo MP is just like CoD. And no, they won't dare touch MLG playlists.

Yeah. Or I'll also say "Everything is fair." Because if a wizard uses Meteor Shower and everyone accepts damage, well, that's perfectly fair. For what was supposed to happen.

And yes, philosophies or different mentalities. Because I also have players who will say:
"I think the teams should be switched, due to imbalance in skill." During Halo.
Then when we move to RPGs, we're playing an RPG. They're playing their own character. And only arising with a question when it's a undefined physics in the game that does not make sense to them.

I'll try to talk to them. Hah. I mean they're all writing up this story that me and the ones making the RPG will convert to a campaign that they get to experience. Catering to them with "Your character receives this special sword ehre."  Destroys the purpose of the RPG. I'm not going to let that happen.

And also with that- it depresses the mood of the other persons playing, concluding to time that people were expecting to be fun. However, the atmosphere becomes tense because a player is mad because something was not ruled to his liking.

I'll end up telling them, "Play the RPG, then come to me after with what you think. Or leave." At this point, I don't care. They can not play. I won't stop them.

@LibraryLass Exactly. I believe it's a about a team effort where everyone contributes to accomplish the given task. Anything otherwise is just crossing over your wish to introduce competitive play to RPGs. And players may compete(attempting to reacha  level or skill) however, with too much  competing. Things turn south.

Quote from: hamstertamer;684223Why bother with all those spells.  Just use Polymorph other and turn the fighter into a bug, then step on him. Or maybe turn him into a mouse, put him in a cage, and save him for your pet owl.

Because the 10th level fighter has great saves, the magic-user has to get in close for it to work, and just because he's polymorphed it doesn't mean he'll die with a single boot-step (he becomes a bug with 55 hit points assuming it works at all...)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;684259Because the 10th level fighter has great saves, the magic-user has to get in close for it to work, and just because he's polymorphed it doesn't mean he'll die with a single boot-step (he becomes a bug with 55 hit points assuming it works at all...)

A lot of spells have saves, so I don't see the point of mentioning that, and so what his hit points are 55 the wizard can just hold his foot down until death or just stump him multiple times. How much damage is a stomp on a bug? Well, it's up to a DM isn't it. I would probably go with instant death on a bug stomp though, due to realism.  Hit points are not really that important at that stage of game play.

A pre-3E high-level fighter's got fantastic saves. A save or suck/die spell has maybe 25% to work at most.

Meanwhile said fighter could well do enough damage to kill the wizard in 1 round.

Quote from: The Ent;684367A pre-3E high-level fighter's got fantastic saves. A save or suck/die spell has maybe 25% to work at most.

Meanwhile said fighter could well do enough damage to kill the wizard in 1 round.

I rarely concerm myself with one charcaters ability to kill another,

but

Is 1 in 4 chance to die really 'fantastic' ?

Sure, if a fighter and a wizard appear unprepared in a 10' cell and fight, the fighter should win.

But all the wizard really needs is mirror image spell and it's all over for the fighter.

If they are both decked out in magic items it gets more murkey.

Quote from: Bill;684387I rarely concerm myself with one charcaters ability to kill another,

but

Is 1 in 4 chance to die really 'fantastic' ?

Sure, if a fighter and a wizard appear unprepared in a 10' cell and fight, the fighter should win.

But all the wizard really needs is mirror image spell and it's all over for the fighter.

If they are both decked out in magic items it gets more murkey.

Agreed on the "wich character can beat up wich" thing, that's largely not very interesting or relevant and I'm kinda sorry about bringing it up

And yeah, tactics is very important.
And even pre-3e---even pre-late 2e, really, where it's generally seen to have begun---magic-users do have a bunch of "anti-fighter" spells like mirror image, stoneskin, protection from normal missiles, etc etc.

Edit to add:
...because really, the fighter's job is to stop a troll/hill giant/whatevs from stomping the magic-user, the magic-user's job is to nuke the wraiths so the fighter doesn't have to fight them and thus avoids getting level-drained, the thief's job is among other things to get the other two in and out of the place without waking up every single monster AND without wasting precious spell slots, and so on and so forth. Well among many other cool things the fighters and magic-users and others do of course.

Quote from: The Ent;684389Agreed on the "wich character can beat up wich" thing, that's largely not very interesting or relevant and I'm kinda sorry about bringing it up

And yeah, tactics is very important.
And even pre-3e---even pre-late 2e, really, where it's generally seen to have begun---magic-users do have a bunch of "anti-fighter" spells like mirror image, stoneskin, protection from normal missiles, etc etc.

Well, it can matter in regards to battling villains

Quote from: Bill;684391Well, it can matter in regards to battling villains

Oh absolutely!

(And of course that kind of spells - stoneskin, flame shield*, etc etc - are really really cool for say a fighter/magic-user to have, among other stuff they mean that, if you're playing 2e say, the lack of armor doesn't hurt quite that much.)

*=now that's a badass spell! And people say stoneskin is horrible! Flame shield is probably at least as bad!

Quote from: Bill;684387But all the wizard really needs is mirror image spell and it's all over for the fighter.

Nope. Mirror image is a good defensive spell but not "proof" against anything, even if it was cast and not disrupted.

2-5 images if cast successfully.

This means the fighter (at worst) has a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the magic user on the first attack. At 2 attacks per round the magic user is in trouble rather quickly.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684405Nope. Mirror image is a good defensive spell but not "proof" against anything, even if it was cast and not disrupted.

2-5 images if cast successfully.

This means the fighter (at worst) has a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the magic user on the first attack. At 2 attacks per round the magic user is in trouble rather quickly.

Say what?

And the wizard just spends 4-6 rounds doing nothing?

One hold person spell against a single target and its over.


The odds greatly favor the wizard.

Quote from: Bill;684409Say what?

And the wizard just spends 4-6 rounds doing nothing?

One hold person spell against a single target and its over.


The odds greatly favor the wizard.

4-6 rounds?  That estimate greatly exceeds the magic users 25 hp life expectancy.

Round 1:  1 in 6 hit chance/ 1 in 5 hit chance
Round 2: 1 in 4 hit chance/ 1 in 3 hit chance
Round 3: 1 in 2 hit chance/ splat

This is assuming maximum images were rolled and the spell went off.

A hold person would be a fight ender IF it were cast successfully AND the very good spell save was failed. Meanwhile even average Joe the fighter is thwacking the magic user for 2d8 each round.  At 9 points of damage per round the magic user is dead meat in less than 2 rounds of successful attacks.

This is assuming all average stats and hp for both characters. Heck I'm not even giving the fighter a STR bonus.

The magic-user would probably be casting stuff besides hold person at the fighter though. While fireball say isn't necessarily that effective, it's still several dice of damage, and while the magic-user probably can't cast 6 or so fireballs he's probably also got magic missile wich while wimpy is also unavoidable and not something a fighter who's just weathered a couple fireballs want cast at him.

(Note: I'm pro-fighter! But really...there's a bunch of stuff the magic-user can do if he isn't just splatted. Note: big if.)

Quote from: The Ent;684426The magic-user would probably be casting stuff besides hold person at the fighter though. While fireball say isn't necessarily that effective, it's still several dice of damage, and while the magic-user probably can't cast 6 or so fireballs he's probably also got magic missile wich while wimpy is also unavoidable and not something a fighter who's just weathered a couple fireballs want cast at him.

(Note: I'm pro-fighter! But really...there's a bunch of stuff the magic-user can do if he isn't just splatted. Note: big if.)

The MU certainly has options and probably won't lose 100% of the time. The whole point was dispelling the myth of Angel Summoner and BMX bandit syndrome in AD&D. If the rules were actually used, the fighter was not automatically dominated by casters.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684433The MU certainly has options and probably won't lose 100% of the time. The whole point was dispelling the myth of Angel Summoner and BMX bandit syndrome in AD&D. If the rules were actually used, the fighter was not automatically dominated by casters.

Agreed! That's much more of a 3e thing. MUs certainly got powerful at high levels in AD&D too but so did fighters too (a high-level AD&D fighter is like a force of nature. Dragons, giants, demons, whatevs, he hacks them to pieces).