Quote from: Bill;684018I agree.

When you knock a Beholder prone, it's easy to explain that as 'jarring the beholder'

It's funny that some people can't handle that but don't mind abstract hp.

Hell, even if you don't I think the idea of bitchslapping a beholder so hard it goes spinning face-first into the dirt like a big angry volleyball is the funniest thing I've imagined all day.

Quote from: Bill;684018I agree.

When you knock a Beholder prone, it's easy to explain that as 'jarring the beholder'

It's funny that some people can't handle that but don't mind abstract hp.

I believe what folks are saying, and certainly how I feel myself, is that I don't like and shouldn't have to constantly rationalize the game world to justify the rules.

It's exactly backwards to how I enjoy games, "world first", not that I "can't handle" something.

I just don't find it fun. And further find it corrosive to the things I do enjoy.

Quote from: Piestrio;684044I believe what folks are saying, and certainly how I feel myself, is that I don't like and shouldn't have to constantly rationalize the game world to justify the rules.

It's exactly backwards to how I enjoy games, "world first", not that I "can't handle" something.

I just don't find it fun. And further find it corrosive to the things I do enjoy.

I respect your right to not enjoy 4E.

There are plenty of games I do not enjoy, or at least do not enjoy gming.

I don't see rationalizing rules as anything new though.
I do that with the absurdity of HP all the time, and its no big deal.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683846Well no fucking shit WoTC is going to say that 3e is better than 2e.  3e was their product, and 2e wasn't.

Yes, it was.  They owned it.  They STILL own it, and just re-released it.  What, you thought Lorraine Williams had more respect for the rules her company owned, and the players who played them, than Peter Adkison?

Naw, try again.

QuoteThat's not exactly solid grounds to say that every edition has been admitted to be a failure.

It was as blatant an admission that 2e was a "failure" than anything we're reading now about 4e from WOTC.  I mean fuck dude, one of those quotes said that 2e WASN'T FUN TO PLAY, and 3e would be fun to play.  That sure sounds to me like they're saying that 2e failed.  And again, that's just one-half of one issue of Dragon in the midst of about 12 issues that had this sort of stuff in it.

But what I really hate about the disingenuous of your approach here, Sacrosanct, is your demand for proof with NO INTENTION TO ACCEPT ANYTHING PROFFERED IN RESPONSE.  You asked something that required reading through old magazines just to respond, and then dismissed it out of hand without any thought, even though it said the very things you claimed had never been said.  And, if I did it again - if I found you quotes about 1e, you'd likely do the same thing.  This isn't a debate between peers in your mind - it seems to you, this is simply a forum to tell others what you think, and then just sit back and repeat what you think and dismiss whatever replies you get that disagree with you.

Now maybe that's fun for you.  But, not for me.  And, not for most people, I suspect.  It's not an honest discussion.  So, let me know when you're ready for one of those.

Quote from: LibraryLass;684037bitchslapping a beholder

Interesting turn of phrase for someone who gave me a hard time in the ConTessa thread for using the C word.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=664328&postcount=125

I think Mistwell is a closet 4venger.

I feel the burning flames of righteousness in his defense of 4e.

I've been reading a lot of 80s Marvel comics lately so I'm seeing a lot of TSR adverts. The ads for the 2e PHB all say as their headline 'Your toughest opponent shouldn't be the rulebook'. Which to me clearly implies that in 1e the rulebook sometimes was your toughest opponent and had a bunch of problems that 2e would now be fixing.

I assume this is the one you mean:

"Your Toughest Opponent Shouldn't Be the Rulebook."

Text: "We think that it's time the rules books were on your side. Introducing ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS ™ 2nd Edition game system, the revised, player-friendly edition of the world's most popular role-playing game. After 15,000 letters, years of research, and many hours of playtesting, the game system you've been waiting for is here. We've revised our handbooks to be more concise and better indexed. Awkward mechanics have been cleaned up, and rule changes have been made to improve play. Revised tables, charts, and graphs make for a smoother game, and powerful new graphics created vivid images for campaign play. In short, the best just got better. But fear not. AD&D 2nd Edition is intended to improve your game. All AD&D 2nd Edition products are compatible with existing AD&D products. So arm yourself with AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook. With all that's in store for you on your journey, the last thing you need is another opponent."

Quote from: Mistwell;684180It was as blatant an admission that 2e was a "failure" than anything we're reading now about 4e from WOTC.  

Dude, 3e was released 11 years after 2e. You might have a point if TSR turned around in 1991 and released a substantially repackaged version of the 2e core game, and then scrapped it altogether in 1992.

WotC fundamentally re-worked and re-packaged 4e two years after it was released, let it die one year after that, and then the following year came out and admitted they lost sight of what most D&D fans want. It's not the same old.

That doesn't mean WotC believes they made a terrible game. It means WotC believes they made the wrong game, which alienated a big chunk of its customer base and failed to get enough traction with new players to make up the losses.

Quote from: jadrax;684193I assume this is the one you mean:

"Your Toughest Opponent Shouldn't Be the Rulebook."

Text: "We think that it's time the rules books were on your side. Introducing ADVANCED DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS ™ 2nd Edition game system, the revised, player-friendly edition of the world's most popular role-playing game. After 15,000 letters, years of research, and many hours of playtesting, the game system you've been waiting for is here. We've revised our handbooks to be more concise and better indexed. Awkward mechanics have been cleaned up, and rule changes have been made to improve play. Revised tables, charts, and graphs make for a smoother game, and powerful new graphics created vivid images for campaign play. In short, the best just got better. But fear not. AD&D 2nd Edition is intended to improve your game. All AD&D 2nd Edition products are compatible with existing AD&D products. So arm yourself with AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook. With all that's in store for you on your journey, the last thing you need is another opponent."

That's pretty much the same as saying they lost sight of what D&D fans really wanted. Right? Isn't it? Guys?

Quote from: 1989;684186I think Mistwell is a closet 4venger.

I feel the burning flames of righteousness in his defense of 4e.

You're just figuring this out now?

Quote from: Haffrung;684202That's pretty much the same as saying they lost sight of what D&D fans really wanted. Right? Isn't it? Guys?

The cognitive dissonance that must be required to claim that makes my head hurt.

Quote from: soviet;684187I've been reading a lot of 80s Marvel comics lately so I'm seeing a lot of TSR adverts. The ads for the 2e PHB all say as their headline 'Your toughest opponent shouldn't be the rulebook'. Which to me clearly implies that in 1e the rulebook sometimes was your toughest opponent and had a bunch of problems that 2e would now be fixing.

That was about organization. 2E tried to organize things more clearly. I don't see these as similar situations at all (1E was enormously popular, and 2E was trying to continue and grow that success). 2E is virtually the same game mechanically as 1E.

Quote from: Mistwell;684180Yes, it was.  They owned it.  They STILL own it, and just re-released it.  What, you thought Lorraine Williams had more respect for the rules her company owned, and the players who played them, than Peter Adkison?

Naw, try again.



It was as blatant an admission that 2e was a "failure" than anything we're reading now about 4e from WOTC.  I mean fuck dude, one of those quotes said that 2e WASN'T FUN TO PLAY, and 3e would be fun to play.  That sure sounds to me like they're saying that 2e failed.  And again, that's just one-half of one issue of Dragon in the midst of about 12 issues that had this sort of stuff in it.

But what I really hate about the disingenuous of your approach here, Sacrosanct, is your demand for proof with NO INTENTION TO ACCEPT ANYTHING PROFFERED IN RESPONSE.  You asked something that required reading through old magazines just to respond, and then dismissed it out of hand without any thought, even though it said the very things you claimed had never been said.  And, if I did it again - if I found you quotes about 1e, you'd likely do the same thing.  This isn't a debate between peers in your mind - it seems to you, this is simply a forum to tell others what you think, and then just sit back and repeat what you think and dismiss whatever replies you get that disagree with you.

Now maybe that's fun for you.  But, not for me.  And, not for most people, I suspect.  It's not an honest discussion.  So, let me know when you're ready for one of those.

If you can't see the difference between a new company saying their version is better than the old companies', and the same people who worked on a version saying the previous one was wrong, then I can't help you.  That's a clear distinction.  You claimed it was true of every edition that it was admitted the previous one failed.  

That's not true.  Unless you can show me where the TSR folks admitted that 2e failed.  You havn't done that.  All you've done is show how WotC said their version is better.  Those don't mean the same thing.

so before you go around accusing other people of being dishonest, take a big long look in the mirror

Quote from: jadrax;684193. But fear not. AD&D 2nd Edition is intended to improve your game. All AD&D 2nd Edition products are compatible with existing AD&D products. So arm yourself with AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook. With all that's in store for you on your journey, the last thing you need is another opponent."

This was the crucial point. I remember buying 1E and 2E products and mixing them freely. 2E was not a rejection of 1E (which was the edition during the boom in D&Ds popularity in the early 80s). Their marketing was all about cleaning up the corners and making the thing easier to navigate.