Quote from: LibraryLass;683932I think most players can handle asymmetry so long as they can count on meaningful contribution.

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That's the entire point of Ars Magica. (And, to a lesser extent, Rifts, if only implicitly.)

There is 'organic' meaningful contribution, and 'contrived' meaningful contribution.


Organic requires some degree of balance. As in, a scholar learns the weaknes s of a mummy through research, may be as useful as a warrior seeking a magic sword to slay the mummy.

Contrived does not. As in, Yes..yes of course the scent of oranges destroys that mummy...yes...because your pc is an orange farmer.

The only time I've seen balance work in play, is with wargaming ventures where each side starts out with the same number of points to build their units. Even then, it hasn't been fair because some Players have more experience/better tactical skills/better understanding of the rules than others.

A lot of times it is not what you have, but how you use it that wins the day.

As a GM it is my job to make sure each player has a fair chance to do stuff and that one player doesn't monopolize too much table time.

Where I draw the line?  At whiny bitches. Don't need em.

Quote from: jeff37923;684147A lot of times it is not what you have, but how you use it that wins the day.

Ideally yes.  Decisions at the table should matter more than build.  Any game that doesn't do this isn't much fun to me.

The question is what tools do characters have in their toolbox?  If one character has a saw, and the other has a hammer, that's fine.  If one has a saw and a screwdriver, while the other has a hammer, that's okay, too.

Hell, if one's got a power drill and the other has a hammer, that's also fine.  The hammer's still useful, and necessary.  The fact that the drill is 'better' than the hammer isn't really relevant.

Where things become problematic is where one character has a full, portable, fusion-powered workshop including a repeating fusion powered hammer-o-matic, and the other has a rusty hammer.  Angel Summoner vs. BMX Bandit.

And even *this* concept of balance is mostly important if you make the assumption that everyone will be playing the same characters for the whole campaign, and that characters, in general, won't die.

Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit only works (or doesn't as you like) in games where there's just nothing but over the top powers.  I've seen it happen - I made the mistake of making one of my first Champions characters a well-balanced "Real Roleplayer" kind of character and then got into a game with a clone of The Hulk, Iron Man, Batman and a homicidal insane spiderman.  

In AD&D, if "Angel Summoner" is the mid to high level magic user, the rules will pretty much keep that in line; components, disruption of spell by attacks, limitations on spells cast, etc. do go a long way to preventing the fighters being left out.  After 9 rounds, the high-level magic user is out of deadly spells to use and now relying on potentially irreplaceable magic items to do the work.  Meanwhile the fighter with the 2-handed +3 sword is still up and hacking away, taking hits that would kill a magic-user (potentially in one blow).

So it balances (ugh!) out.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;684161Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit only works (or doesn't as you like) in games where there's just nothing but over the top powers.  I've seen it happen - I made the mistake of making one of my first Champions characters a well-balanced "Real Roleplayer" kind of character and then got into a game with a clone of The Hulk, Iron Man, Batman and a homicidal insane spiderman.  

In AD&D, if "Angel Summoner" is the mid to high level magic user, the rules will pretty much keep that in line; components, disruption of spell by attacks, limitations on spells cast, etc. do go a long way to preventing the fighters being left out.  After 9 rounds, the high-level magic user is out of deadly spells to use and now relying on potentially irreplaceable magic items to do the work.  Meanwhile the fighter with the 2-handed +3 sword is still up and hacking away, taking hits that would kill a magic-user (potentially in one blow).

So it balances (ugh!) out.

The problem really lies somewhere else - in that the most high level MUs will have their "buffs" cast beforehand, often making it very, very difficult for the fighter to be able to target them at all, without some magic of their own.

I know how to solve that problem, but it does not mean that the mechanics don't push a bit of an "upstream battle" for the GM, so to speak. I'd say that the best thing about AD&D's MU was his general lack of spell slots (starting with 1 if I remember correctly), which does balance it out a bit more, since you need to pick between buffing yourself out of the harm's way, and being able to take out enemies.

Quote from: Rincewind1;684163The problem really lies somewhere else - in that the most high level MUs will have their "buffs" cast beforehand, often making it very, very difficult for the fighter to be able to target them at all, without some magic of their own.

I know how to solve that problem, but it does not mean that the mechanics don't push a bit of an "upstream battle" for the GM, so to speak. I'd say that the best thing about AD&D's MU was his general lack of spell slots (starting with 1 if I remember correctly), which does balance it out a bit more, since you need to pick between buffing yourself out of the harm's way, and being able to take out enemies.

What buffs are these (assuming real pre-UA AD&D )? If the magic user spends too many spell slots on defensive magic the he hasn't got much zapping power.

Even invisibility can be overcome by high level characters. In AD&D you can detect invisible things easier if you are badass. Angel Summoner is more of a 3.X problem.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;684161Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit only works (or doesn't as you like) in games where there's just nothing but over the top powers.  I've seen it happen - I made the mistake of making one of my first Champions characters a well-balanced "Real Roleplayer" kind of character and then got into a game with a clone of The Hulk, Iron Man, Batman and a homicidal insane spiderman.  

In AD&D, if "Angel Summoner" is the mid to high level magic user, the rules will pretty much keep that in line; components, disruption of spell by attacks, limitations on spells cast, etc. do go a long way to preventing the fighters being left out.  After 9 rounds, the high-level magic user is out of deadly spells to use and now relying on potentially irreplaceable magic items to do the work.  Meanwhile the fighter with the 2-handed +3 sword is still up and hacking away, taking hits that would kill a magic-user (potentially in one blow).

So it balances (ugh!) out.

How many battles last longer then 9 rounds.  When I played AD&D most battles lasted no more then 5 unless it was some kind of massive battle.  The balance in old AD&D was that magic-users were very weak at the low levels and had very low survivability and utility (at lower levels).   Once they approached 9th level the wizards in theory were more powerful then a fighter, but the game had shifted to a game of strongholds and armies.  This was usually the ending point of the campaign and someone else took a turn at dming. Because of this, in my gaming experience, people avoided magic-users.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684164What buffs are these (assuming real pre-UA AD&D )? If the magic user spends too many spell slots on defensive magic the he hasn't got much zapping power.

Even invisibility can be overcome by high level characters. In AD&D you can detect invisible things easier if you are badass. Angel Summoner is more of a 3.X problem.

Nothin' much more to say here except "Howard Johnson is right!"

I think the creation of a lot of 3e's rules were based on "Well we don't do that," ("that" being count components, casting time, etc. etc.) "anymore because we just house ruled it out anyway back when we played." and that in turn created more problems than it solved, to wit, Angel Summoner etc.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684164What buffs are these (assuming real pre-UA AD&D )? If the magic user spends too many spell slots on defensive magic the he hasn't got much zapping power.

Even invisibility can be overcome by high level characters. In AD&D you can detect invisible things easier if you are badass. Angel Summoner is more of a 3.X problem.

Let's assume a 10th level MU (and yes, I know they aren't commonplace, but nobody says that wizard's too powerful on low levels).

So we've got 4 circle 1 spells, 3 of 2 and 3rd circle, and 2 of 4th and 5th.

Let's say one spell from 3th is out for Clairaudience - after all the wizard needs to know the heroes are coming somehow.

1st circle buffs:

Protection from Good
Shield

2nd circle buffs:
Invisibility
Mirror Image (this one cast when the door open, though)

3rd circle:
Fly
Protection from Normal Missiles

Offensive spells:

Level one:

2x Magic Missile

Level 2:
Web

Level Three:

Level Four:
Fire Trap (Preferrably supported by Web)
Ice Storm
Or 2x Ice Storm
Level 5:
2x Cone of Cold? Or 1x Cone of Cold 1x Cloudkill

And yes, this can be countered by tactics and some magic from the heroes. But let's not say that a lone Fighter without any magical items will just walk in and slap the bitch.

That said, of course, at the same time - the "glass cannoness" of a wizard shows here, since after all that, he's pretty much going "beep beep, out of fuel" for the rest of the day.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;684169I think the creation of a lot of 3e's rules were based on "Well we don't do that," ("that" being count components, casting time, etc. etc.) "anymore because we just house ruled it out anyway back when we played." and that in turn created more problems than it solved, to wit, Angel Summoner etc.

3E Development:

Lets make magic users more fun!

Spell disruption isn't fun, lets make it possible but real hard.

Not getting to move isn't fun. Lets let them manuver to avoid getting hit while casting.

Only getting 1 spell isn't fun, lets give them bonus spells.

Even bonus spells don't provide enough pew-pew. Lets make scrolls & wands cheap and easy to make.

Thats better. Now everyone will want to play a magic user.....

Hey guys......

Quote from: Rincewind1;684173Let's assume a 10th level MU (and yes, I know they aren't commonplace, but nobody says that wizard's too powerful on low levels).

So we've got 4 circle 1 spells, 3 of 2 and 3rd circle, and 2 of 4th and 5th.

Let's say one spell from 3th is out for Clairaudience - after all the wizard needs to know the heroes are coming somehow.

1st circle buffs:

Protection from Good
Shield

2nd circle buffs:
Invisibility
Mirror Image (this one cast when the door open, though)

3rd circle:
Fly
Protection from Normal Missiles

Offensive spells:

Level one:

2x Magic Missile

Level 2:
Web

Level Three:

Level Four:
Fire Trap (Preferrably supported by Web)
Ice Storm
Or 2x Ice Storm
Level 5:
2x Cone of Cold? Or 1x Cone of Cold 1x Cloudkill

And yes, this can be countered by tactics and some magic from the heroes. But let's not say that a lone Fighter without any magical items will just walk in and slap the bitch.

That said, of course, at the same time - the "glass cannoness" of a wizard shows here, since after all that, he's pretty much going "beep beep, out of fuel" for the rest of the day.

Well the invis is shot when he casts mirror image so that is a wasted spell slot.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;684179Well the invis is shot when he casts mirror image so that is a wasted spell slot.

Well, touche . Someone who knows his stuff really good (I never was much of a "builder", so to speak) might optimise .

I admit that also a lack of Imp. Invis for Wizards (MUs, whatever) is a big game changer, as it is one of the most powerful buffs in 3e.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;684169Nothin' much more to say here except "Howard Johnson is right!"

I think the creation of a lot of 3e's rules were based on "Well we don't do that," ("that" being count components, casting time, etc. etc.) "anymore because we just house ruled it out anyway back when we played." and that in turn created more problems than it solved, to wit, Angel Summoner etc.

Yeah.  I think they got rid of a lot of those things because they felt clunky/in the way/whatever.  And any of those, in isolation, may have been okay.  But combined, it ended up being a massive change.

And the practical effect of all of it was that pretty much every drawback to playing a caster was removed.