Quote from: soviet;683026That's crazy. There are idiots on all sides of the spectrum, I'm not going to sit here and defend every batshit thing that gets said by a pro-4e person or whatever. I suggest that taking up other people's points and repeating them in other company without any knowledge of how correct they may be, is not a great idea whatever the topic/edition. People should be able to defend/explain the things they say if they want to be taken seriously.

When an expert of a system says that this is how the system works, it is not crazy to take their word for it.  Hell, courts rely on expert testimony to base rulings on; it's not some out of wack philosophy here.  And since I don't play 4e, why should I make myself an expert on it rather than just listen to the person who is the expert?

Listen to yourself man.

Quote from: Bill;683036I enjoy 1E and 4E.

Can't find anyone that will play 1E, flooded with people that will play 3X and 4E.


Makes me sad

Heh. I like 2e/1e and 4e. I think I like them because they are their own games and largely succeed at what they are trying to do. Whereas to me 3e feels like a failed attempt towards achieving something like 4e, and Next is just a half hearted combination of snippets from all the editions.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683040When an expert of a system says that this is how the system works, it is not crazy to take their word for it.  Hell, courts rely on expert testimony to base rulings on; it's not some out of wack philosophy here.  And since I don't play 4e, why should I make myself an expert on it rather than just listen to the person who is the expert?

Listen to yourself man.

All kinds of people claim to be experts on things. Doesn't make them right. I'm sure that somewhere out there right now there is a self-professed expert on *your favourite game* saying some random, weird bullshit that isn't based on reality. Doesn't make him right either.

Quote from: soviet;683051All kinds of people claim to be experts on things. Doesn't make them right. I'm sure that somewhere out there right now there is a self-professed expert on *your favourite game* saying some random, weird bullshit that isn't based on reality. Doesn't make him right either.

so then the other option must be the right one.  These are the 4e experts, not just one random guy.  if you can't take the word of a group of people who are experts of a particular edition, then they must all be lying bastards.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683054so then the other option must be the right one.  These are the 4e experts, not just one random guy.  if you can't take the word of a group of people who are experts of a particular edition, then they must all be lying bastards.

Thanks for clarifying that.

It's just that any potentially negative thought about 4e must be purged by any means necessary.

4e is perfect and its purity must be defended.

For example I have a good buddy who likes 4e and has said, and this is a direct quote, "I like that 4e feels like World of Warcraft"

That would get him tarred and feather by 4vengers because its not an acceptable opinion. It would probably create cries of some sort of false flag 'attack' from their addled minds.

Quote from: Piestrio;683056It's just that any potentially negative thought about 4e must be purged by any means necessary.

4e is perfect and its purity must be defended.

Exactly. Any discussion of 4e that falls short of utter condemnation is simply moral cowardice.

Quote from: soviet;683058Exactly. Any discussion of 4e that falls short of utter condemnation is simply moral cowardice.

HA! We've had many good conversations about the strengths of 4e on this board. Try again.

Quote from: Piestrio;683056For example I have a good buddy who likes 4e and has said, and this is a direct quote, "I like that 4e feels like World of Warcraft"

Of course you do. I have a good buddy who likes DC adventures and Pathfinder - he's an expert on them really - and this is a direct quote, "Only cunts play them".

:rolleyes:

And people wonder where the term 4ron came from.

Quote from: soviet;683061Of course you do. I have a good buddy who likes DC adventures and Pathfinder - he's an expert on them really - and this is a direct quote, "Only cunts play them".

:rolleyes:

Thanks for proving my point.

Quote from: Piestrio;683060HA! We've had many good conversations about the strengths of 4e on this board. Try again.

Listen, I like 4e, but I agree it has flaws and in fact I like TSR editions more. That doesn't mean that every criticism of it ever is valid though.

Quote from: Piestrio;683056It's just that any potentially negative thought about 4e must be purged by any means necessary.

4e is perfect and its purity must be defended..

OH man, you don't even KNOW the level of irony the 4vengers have over at the official WoTC forums.  Note, I'm not talking about 4e fans; many are perfectly reasonable.

But you have guys like TCO saying that 5e will fail because they way it's designed will split the user base because a "reasonable" person will just stick with their current edition.

Of course the fact that that is exactly what happened with 4e is completely lost on him.

What I've found is that this is excused by, "Only the unreasonable people didn't move to 4e because 4e is objectively better than any other game."

Or in other words, "We don't hold ourselves to the same standards as everyone else."

Shocking, I know.

Quote from: soviet;683064Listen, I like 4e, but I agree it has flaws and in fact I like TSR editions more. That doesn't mean that every criticism of it ever is valid though.

You say things like this but you constantly leap to the defence of 4e whenever it's virtue is challenged so please forgive me if I take your protestations with a grain of salt.

The hypocrisy of 4vengers is truly stunning in scope.

4venger, "I like that 4e is a good GAME in it's own right. It puts the G back in RPG"

4venger chorus, "YES! That's awesome!"


Normal person "I don't like 4e, it just feels too 'gamey'"

4venger chorus, "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING SHITCOCKGROGCUNT!"


4venger "I like that 4e takes it's cues from the modern world and isn't mired in the youth culture of the 80's"

4venger Chorus, "YES! You are great and right!"


Normal person, "I don't like that 4e feels disconnected from it's roots and leans so heavily on modern tropes"

4venger chorus, "AARRRRRRGGGG WHY DO YOU EDITION WAR!!!!!???"

Quote from: 1989;6823424e is bad. Really bad. Worst D&D ever. Complete failure. Publisher recanted it. That's how bad.

From now to the future, having liked, owned, and played 4e will mark any gamer as someone to avoid.

It will be the litmus test for potential recruits to game groups everywhere:

"What did you think of 4e?"

"I mostly liked it."

"Yeah, sorry, our gaming group is pretty full, right now. Check back at another time."

You're just pleased because all of that USED to apply to 2e!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrosanct;682948Actually it is.  That part where I said 4e fighters could replicate spells?  That was taken directly from TCO and Lokaire from the WoTC forums.  Specifically in the context that Next is screwing 4e playstyle because the Next fighter, even the gladiator who does have plenty of maneuvers and abilities, cannot "replicate the spells of a cleric or mage like the 4e fighter could."

And it didn't occur to you that the WOTC boards are full of dribbling retards? Really, I trust their opinions on anything, even games they like, about as much as I trust Jenny McCarthy's opinions on vaccination.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;682953Outside of rituals there are powers such as come and get it, that operate like powerful magical effects but are labelled as being from a "martial power source" whatever the fuck thats supposed to mean.

Constructs, mindless undead, oozes, whatever are compelled by some force to race to the tanking fighter and engage in melee. There is no game world level satifactory explanation for this. It is a power that just works because the rules say so.

That is a mind controlling magical power so awesome that a mind isn't even required for it to work.

I'd call it more "narrative handwaving to make this effect work" than magic, but... ehh, I feel like there's generally enough distinct that to say that "indistinguishable from spells" would be exaggeration. Built on the same framework, sure. Identical, not so much. Maybe a bit of a subtle distinction, but I say it's not yet just hair-splitting. Even if you put a fighter and a swordmage (the most similar arcane class, being as it uses weapons and shares the defender role) side by side, they're not going to be doing the same things in the same ways, either mechanically or in terms of flavor.