Quote from: Emperor Norton;679409I've come to the conclusion from reading these boards that either one of two things must be true:

1. You guys aren't accurately describing the average 4e player.

2. I played 4e nothing like the average 4e player.

Because, while I played 4e and enjoyed it, it was still a filtered through the GM experience and while the rules for combat were rather codified, there was always stuff that didn't fit and rulings were still made at the table and combat wasn't the majority of the game (though it was a major component, but then again, combat has been a major component of D&D games for me since I started playing in the late 80s. Major just means it was LIKELY to happen every session, though).

I'm a current 4E player.

I will be playing in my buddy's 4E campaign tonight in fact. It isn't my preferred system and I wouldn't run it, but I'm not one to turn down a game with my friends because of system preference issues.

I like the people I'm playing with and I like what we are doing in the campaign. The system, for me, is just there. Nothing to get excited about but no reason not to play with this group.

Too many people let their own preferences and entitlement issues get in the way of a good time. I'm there to roleplay, and have a good time, not masturbate over manipulating certain mechanics.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;679409I've come to the conclusion from reading these boards that either one of two things must be true:

1. You guys aren't accurately describing the average 4e player.

2. I played 4e nothing like the average 4e player.

Because, while I played 4e and enjoyed it, it was still a filtered through the GM experience and while the rules for combat were rather codified, there was always stuff that didn't fit and rulings were still made at the table and combat wasn't the majority of the game (though it was a major component, but then again, combat has been a major component of D&D games for me since I started playing in the late 80s. Major just means it was LIKELY to happen every session, though).

I have been gmming 4e and playing it pretty much ever sinse it came out.

I gm and play it essentially the same as I do 1E, or any rpg.

The only real difference in my eyes, is the ruleset is more 'clean'

I particularly find it perplexing when someone says 4e does not let you roleplay.  wtf!?

I have been roleplaying in 4e just fine thank you.


I do admit I would rather be doing 1E though.

Quote from: Bill;679417I have been gmming 4e and playing it pretty much ever sinse it came out.

I gm and play it essentially the same as I do 1E, or any rpg.

When I ran 4e, I basically did the same thing.

But if someone's primary experiences with 4e are through either Encounters or LFR, I can totally get their point.  I have no use for either of those.  They both sum up everything I find uninteresting about RPGs.

Quote from: robiswrong;679383It's really the triumph of the munchkins over the grognards.

I don't know if I would call that a triumph.

A lot of munchkins theorize online for a very good reason-they can't find a DM willing to run games for them.

So, YAY for kewl powerz. Have fun finding a game to use them in.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;679441I don't know if I would call that a triumph.

In terms of determining the direction of the hobby, they absolutely did.  Whether that style is "better" than the grognard style is a matter of opinion.  I'm pretty sure I prefer the grognard style

Hell, pretty much anyone under age 40 falls into the 'munchkin' category.  We were the kids, the little people - the munchkins - invading the hobby, and making the best sense we could of the rules (that were often designed for people that had an implicit wargaming background).

I frankly doubt that I would have really understood any kind of difference had I not gotten into a game that had been running for about 20 years that was run by a friend of mine's father.  And I'm 41, so do the math.  He was in his probably mid-20s or so when he started it, and it was based on a combination of AD&D and The Fantasy Trip.

To differentiate from 'old-school', I like to call that type of game 'paleo'.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;677622the popularity of the OSR seems to point to the direction that it's not declining.  Thankfully.  Rules can't fix bad DMs because bad DMs  will always find a way to hurt the experience.  That's why they are bad.  Perhaps instead of catering to the lowest common denominator, game designers encourage players to either use a different DM, or try it themselves rather than bitch about something they weren't willing to do themselves

Precisely. The idiocy of having an opinion like Sommerjon's is that if we really assume a bad-faith DM, there's nothing in 3e or 4e or any other RPG where the GM isn't completely disempowered where he couldn't use the rules-as-written to absolutely destroy his player's characters.

Even in that scenario, the GM is god.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;680075Precisely. The idiocy of having an opinion like Sommerjon's is that if we really assume a bad-faith DM, there's nothing in 3e or 4e or any other RPG where the GM isn't completely disempowered where he couldn't use the rules-as-written to absolutely destroy his player's characters.

Even in that scenario, the GM is god.

RPGPundit

It'd be more accurate to say that WITHOUT the GM, the player is Helen Keller.  

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;680255It'd be more accurate to say that WITHOUT the GM, the player is Helen Keller.  

JG

So they are brilliant?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;679414I'm a current 4E player.

I will be playing in my buddy's 4E campaign tonight in fact. It isn't my preferred system and I wouldn't run it, but I'm not one to turn down a game with my friends because of system preference issues.

I like the people I'm playing with and I like what we are doing in the campaign. The system, for me, is just there. Nothing to get excited about but no reason not to play with this group.

Too many people let their own preferences and entitlement issues get in the way of a good time. I'm there to roleplay, and have a good time, not masturbate over manipulating certain mechanics.

I'm down with that. Kudos.

Quote from: Kuroth;680259So they are brilliant?

They're probably at least the smartest person they know...

Quote from: TristramEvans;680274They're probably at least the smartest person they know...

What Helen Keller overcame was amazing.  I didn't really care what point James was trying to make, using her like that was...moronic.

Quote from: Kuroth;680286What Helen Keller overcame was amazing.  I didn't really care what point James was trying to make, using her like that was...moronic.

"Deaf and blind", hotshot.

I assume you know a better icon for that condition?  Please share.

Quote from: mcbobbo;680310"Deaf and blind", hotshot.

I assume you know a better icon for that condition?  Please share.

She was brilliant. Using her for a joke in this way is moronic beyond only bad taste. I would have loved to meet her.  

Otherwise, this is the state of these game discussions.  The most bland static possible.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;679414I'm there to roleplay, and have a good time, not masturbate over manipulating certain mechanics.

Now THAT is a quotable quote.

Quote from: Kuroth;680322She was brilliant. Using her for a joke in this way is moronic beyond only bad taste. I would have loved to meet her.

You're choosing to be offended. Maybe you could choose to get the joke in the way it was intended.