Quote from: Black Vulmea;652742Nice try, but I'm not the one claiming that people are so abjectly dysfunctional that they can't play a game together unless they're already good friends.

That makes two of us. I claimed that although I don't believe it to be a necessity, I don't see the harm in it either.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652413It may kneecap flexibility but it's usually the flexibility to be a dick to the players.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652431Rules help minimise arguments that rulings are prone to spark, especially with people who are not your friends. (emphasis added - BV)

You don't trust others to play fair.

Your weasel words don't disguise that.

I don't assume other people are socially defective. You do.

Wow, your comprehension is really bad. Weasel words? Are you a Lacanian or something? I guess if you're not going to take me on my word, you know where I explicitly outline my thoughts after Bedrock misinterpreted my opinion, and ascribe your own opinions then ignore list for you.

Please stay on topic or at least have something to say. If you can't comment intelligently on subject don't derail the thread.

I am still waiting to find out about the mechanics of the system. I looked at the video again and my impression is it isn't quite for me. But there isn't a lot to go on.

Well, perhaps I was indeed too hasty in judging this a storygame, since I can't find conclusive proof.

When the game is out, and someone I know will buy it, I may give it a read to see whether I was in the right or in the wrong.

How easy would it be to use this map from that thread to run a Torchbearer exploration game?

What would I need to do to be able to do it?

Quote from: Benoist;653572How easy would it be to use this map from that thread to run a Torchbearer exploration game?

What would I need to do to be able to do it?

I just re-read both the forbes articles to see if there was an answer to this question, but most of the details about mechanics and play keep referring back to mouseguard or burning wheel (which I have never read) so not really sure. But from what I could gather there is a skill called dungeoneering and it looks like you use this to navigate passage ways and safely move through tight areas. I am guessing at the very least, you would need to assign DCs to various choke points on your map and people would need to roll to bypass them. But the second article mentions some stuff that makes me think it could be more abstract. They use a lot of language that probably makes sense if you played mouseguard, but I unclear on what the system is going to do.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;653578I just re-read both the forbes articles to see if there was an answer to this question, but most of the details about mechanics and play keep referring back to mouseguard or burning wheel (which I have never read) so not really sure. But from what I could gather there is a skill called dungeoneering and it looks like you use this to navigate passage ways and safely move through tight areas. I am guessing at the very least, you would need to assign DCs to various choke points on your map and people would need to roll to bypass them. But the second article mentions some stuff that makes me think it could be more abstract. They use a lot of language that probably makes sense if you played mouseguard, but I unclear on what the system is going to do.

Yeah see, I know that's not your fault at all, because the information is scarce and thoroughly unclear, but none of that makes any sense to me. It's like the people who've played this game are completely avoiding a specific, clear answer to that question. I.e. how does the exploration actually work? Can I use a standard dungeon map with the game? If so, what do I need to add or modify to be able to use it? Do the specifics of the mapping matter AT ALL in the unfolding of the game, i.e. does it make a difference in the game play at all if I use a map or none at all?

I haven't had any clear answer to that yet. I'd like the people who know the game to actually put some specifics on the table.

Quote from: LukeMapping is something we were very concerned with. We love mapping in Basic D&D, but the procedure doesn't fit well within Mouse Guard or Burning Wheel's structure. So we devised this compromise: The GM has a secret hidden map of the adventure area and describes it piecemeal to the players as they explore. The player whose character has the highest Cartography skill keeps a list of features and areas. Once they have a reasonable list and a moment to catch their breath, the players can make a Cartography test to draw an accurate map. If they do so, then they can navigate those areas freely without taking up a turn of time. If they fail...well...I'll leave the possibilities to your imagination.

Quote from: ThorDraw a map of your dungeon (or whatever), make some notes about monsters, traps, geographical features, etc. and you're good to go for several sessions. There's a pretty good section in the game that walks you through the steps. Or you can grab your favorite One-Page Dungeon, make a few notes and go.

Source

Quote from: LukeThe GM must prep! You have to sketch a dungeon/adventure area and populate it. We wanted to move away from hex- or square-based maps, so our dungeons are more about the sketches divided into descriptive areas. Also, TB dungeons are tiny compared to D&D dungeons. A little sketch in Dro's moleskin took us months to explore. It's much more about the features and description you add than distance or even rooms.

Source

Quote from: Benoist;653580Yeah see, I know that's not your fault at all, because the information is scarce and thoroughly unclear, but none of that makes any sense to me. It's like the people who've played this game are completely avoiding a specific, clear answer to that question. I.e. how does the exploration actually work? Can I use a standard dungeon map with the game? If so, what do I need to add or modify to be able to use it? Do the specifics of the mapping matter AT ALL in the unfolding of the game, i.e. does it make a difference in the game play at all if I use a map or none at all?

I haven't had any clear answer to that yet. I'd like the people who know the game to actually put some specifics on the table.

I could have sworn that - somewhere - I read that TB mapping was very abstracted. That 'locations' were defined more in a flow-chart manner, rather than defining the spaces between. But, I don't see that in the Forbes article or with a quick Googling. Perhaps it was in a Purple thread.

Perhaps this StoryGames thread could shed some light.

Quote from: Benoist;653572How easy would it be to use this map from that thread to run a Torchbearer exploration game?

What would I need to do to be able to do it?

Benoist, I'm not familiar with the specifics of the map as you discuss it in the thread (no time to catch up just at the moment, though it looks interesting), but creating a map like this is a normal part of prepping for Torchbearer.

There are a few ways to use a map like this - you could stock it like a published D&D dungeon: numbered rooms, specific monsters (named, numbered and statted), traps with specific difficulty levels and effects, maneuvering challenges (climbing, squeezing, swimming) all worked out ahead of time.

You don't have to do that. To a certain extent, many of the difficulty levels emerge from the rules. Each skill, for example, has guidelines for how difficult things are, so your prep could merely say, "rocky, vertical slope" and then you could look up how tough that is if the players actually try to ascend. That's what I did while playtesting.

Strictly speaking, the GM could simply ad lib the dungeon with no prep at all, as long as he was willing to cough up encounters and obstacles on the fly.  Or, if the dungeon was stocked by factions that are highly mobile, it might make sense to stat them up but hold encountering them in reserve for failed tests and not allocate them to particular rooms.

So, some comments about the map itself.  The actual decomposition into ten foot squares and specific distances isn't necessary for Torchbearer.  The duration of food and hunger is in terms of significant tests, rather than hours, and light illuminates a number of characters, rather than a radius.

Secondly, the players themselves don't draw a map.  Characters draw maps using the Cartography skill, and well-drawn maps let parties navigate quickly (which reduces pressure on resources).

Now, I think this is a large for a Torchbearer game.  I suspect players would be tempted to draw a map just to keep track of their options (e.g whether they've explored everything) and if it's densely stocked (e.g. something to do in each room), then they'd most likely need to make several excursions into the dungeon, resupplying in between.

Is this the sort of information you're looking for?

Quote from: K Peterson;653632I could have sworn that - somewhere - I read that TB mapping was very abstracted. That 'locations' were defined more in a flow-chart manner, rather than defining the spaces between.

You can do this if you want to. As I said above, specific distances don't matter that much.  Because combat isn't grid-tactical, and distances don't matter that much, if there's a warren-like region of Umber Hulk tunnels, it's fair to describe it as "location 19, abandoned hulk warren - Ob 3 Pathfinder test to traverse it" rather than draw out all the squiggles.

Well, so far Torchbearer got 1/10th of Exalted 3e's money.

It speaks a lot when, as you are a "Posterboy" for indie/new wave RPGs, you have less rabid fandom than a game like Exalted. I mean...seriously. Exalted.

Quote from: Rincewind1;655962Well, so far Torchbearer got 1/10th of Exalted 3e's money.

It speaks a lot when, as you are a "Posterboy" for indie/new wave RPGs, you have less rabid fandom than a game like Exalted. I mean...seriously. Exalted.

Hey, Exalted fandom are pretty rabid.

They used to be, anyway. Might've changed, I dunno.

So, just got another preview PDF from the Kickstarter...oddly enough, these pretentious fucks might end up making a good D&D-like dungeon-crawling RPG after all, even if they hate D&D.