Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652452Frankly, your post seems more polite but also appears to have many of the same assumptions. I think there is nothing wrong with assigning the same kind of status to a player as a GM of you like, but I also dont agree with the suggestion that treating the GM as a different role (it really isnt about being special) than the player is somehow bad or a relic of the past. There are valid reasons for giving the GM power to overide rules (and we've discussed them endlessly on other threads so not going to go into that here) or to devise on the fly rulings. It isn't the only way to play, I respect your right to play the game how you want, but there is nothing wrong with it and it has value.

One point i would disagree with is about rpgs being special. I think rpgs and board games are very different and one of the things that can make an rpg experience so much more enjoyable is the ability of the people at the table to go beyond what is in the book or the pieces on the board.

I never said it was bad or wrong, just that I understand its roots. I'm unconvinced about it's validity or value but that is only in relation to me. Just because I take the opposite opinion, does not mean I'm saying the opposite side is wrong, bad, or stupid.

Boardgames and RPGs are different but RPGs are not special. They offer a different experience or I should say, they have the ability to offer a different experience. That doesn't make them special, just different.

Why do you think that it's not possible to have a similar experience without going beyond books and pieces?

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652454Why do you think that it's not possible to have a similar experience without going beyond books and pieces?

For me, having ome flexibility with the rules is crucial to that experience. I can't speak for others. It is also one of the strengths of the medium in my opinion.

My point is the game exists beyond the rules themselves. Youbare not at the table to exerience the thrill of rolling a d20 and adding numbers to it so you can compare the result against a difficulty rating. You are there to experience the thrill of being a barbarian stabbing at some or orcs or plotting against the local thieves guild. A board game is very much about the pieces and what they represent. RPGs go beyond that, and I do think that makes them special. I have never encountered another type of game that does for e what RPGs do in the way they do it.

All that said i am fine with you playing the game however you like. As I said before, i don't think there is anything wrong with variety in hobby. But this debate about rulings verus rules is getting old. Really I would be interested in knowing more but the torchbearer mechanics.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652456My point is the game exists beyond the rules themselves. Youbare not at the table to exerience the thrill of rolling a d20 and adding numbers to it so you can compare the result against a difficulty rating. You are there to experience the thrill of being a barbarian stabbing at some or orcs or plotting against the local thieves guild. A board game is very much about the pieces and what they represent. RPGs go beyond that, and I do think that makes them special. I have never encountered another type of game that does for e what RPGs do in the way they do it.

I don't think that it does. I think the game is informed by the rules. If the game existed independent of the rules then the rules themselves would be arbitrary. Why debate Runquest and D&D? What's behind taste in rulesets when the game exists independently?

I'm following what you're saying about boardgames but I just see you expressing a uniqueness about RPGs, boardgames are unique as well, so are video games. That doesn't make RPGs special, otherwise all games are special for the unique experiences they deliver.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652463I don't think that it does. I think the game is informed by the rules. If the game existed independent of the rules then the rules themselves would be arbitrary. Why debate Runquest and D&D? What's behind taste in rulesets when the game exists independently?

I'm following what you're saying about boardgames but I just see you expressing a uniqueness about RPGs, boardgames are unique as well, so are video games. That doesn't make RPGs special, otherwise all games are special for the unique experiences they deliver.

I never said rules don't matter. I said the end, the purpose of gaming isnt the mechanics, it is what the mechanics are intended to help you achieve. I tend to play games pretty much RAW. But there are cases where I feel it is important to allow the GM to overide, adjust (when the mechanics produce results that are internally inconsistent or are unbelievable for example). The ability to make choices and decisions not covered by the rules, is one of the things that makes role playing so great in my opinion.

I am not interested in debating you. We both have opinions on the matter and are unlikely to change each others mind.

I wasn't implying that you said rules don't matter but whatever, c'est la vie.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652468I wasn't implying that you said rules don't matter but whatever, c'est la vie.

Okay. I may have misunderstood you. Then were you saying you are at the table strictly for the mechanics? Because my point that you were responding to is that isn't why I am there. I mean I like good mechanics that support the sort of play I want, but I am not there for the die rolls themselves. I'm there for to experience things from my character's point of view. Whereas with a board or card game, I am very much there to interact with the mechanics themselves. Thus my statement the game exists beyond the mechanics.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652473Okay. I may have misunderstood you. Then were you saying you are at the table strictly for the mechanics? Because my point that you were responding to is that isn't why I am there. I mean I like good mechanics that support the sort of play I want, but I am not there for the die rolls themselves. I'm there for to experience things from my character's point of view. Whereas with a board or card game, I am very much there to interact with the mechanics themselves. Thus my statement the game exists beyond the mechanics.

I'm a casual gamer. I play one game fortnightly and it it very much focused on rules and pieces. That doesn't mean we don't view or act from a character basis though. Which is why I asked, why do you think it's not possible to do that with rules and pieces.

From my point of view, this is your dichotomy. I'm not strictly there for mechanics and minis, tokens etc but I'm not there strictly for character experience either. This either/or line doesn't exist to me. I like rolling dice, playing with minis, and roleplaying all equally. The experience would seem incomplete otherwise.

This is true for boardgames and cardgames though. I play Gloom in the same manner, I play digxit in a similar style, I also play BSG from my role as well. To me, I enjoy all these things together.

What I was getting at is, I don't think the game exists beyond rules or pieces. I think rules and pieces either inform or enhance what is going on the game. I'm not saying that the experience of each game is the same but that I approach each game in a similar manner.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652413I'm not sure I agree. It may kneecap flexibility but it's usually the flexibility to be a dick to the players. If you mean flexibility in the creative sense then I definitely disagree. Having a ruleset to work within does not hinder creativity. Then again, I'm the type of person who responds well to working within parameters as I tend to get paralysed and overwhelmed otherwise.

I mean the flexibility to deal with uncommon situations without resort to a massive, comprehensive rules-set. If the players decide to commandeer a merchant ship, light it on fire and send it into the port of the Fell City of Ost, a GM can just make up what happens, using his judgement and imagination, without referring to rules on sea movement rates, burning ships, and how much structural integrity a wharf has. And he can tailor the response of the Mariners Grim to the current strength of the party and the context of the campaign, rather than be constrained by rules governing their response.

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652413However, why does it make it any less of an rpg experience? This seems a bit mean spirited as you're talking an opinion and trying to make it a fact.

Well, it's a different experience. And one that forsakes a major strength of the format. To the extent that a strongly codified game lacks that strength, it also takes on more of the characteristics of a boardgame - ends up doing the same things a boardgame can do, only worse.

Quote from: The Traveller;651624I don't know if you're really meant to master a game, nomenclature notwithstanding. Understand it sure, but mastery in this sense is more like something Mr GC might say.

In the sense that there is a steep learning curve.  I have learned much, even fairly recently, from some of the outstanding gamers here, from a select few blogs, and G+ posts here and there.  Not only from a technical standpoint, but in the way rules can be interpreted and combined.  I would agree, mastering a game in the context of it being 'solved' is unheard of for anything more complex than tic-tac-toe.

Quote from: The Traveller;651747Interesting, I've often felt that the shared narrative, er, narrative was one of gaming mimicking the marxist evolution from feudalism to socialism, a single pivot of power changing to shared power. Yes, that is completely ignorant on numerous levels, I never claimed they were smart.

This would be an interesting topic.  Are the narratives shared in a more or less equal manner, or is there a cult of personality, even at the micro- level of individual groups?

Quote from: StormBringer;652493This would be an interesting topic.  Are the narratives shared in a more or less equal manner, or is there a cult of personality, even at the micro- level of individual groups?

Good question, you'd have to analyse a range of shared narrative groups to find out - I'm guessing the more 'hardcore' groups would probably have a self identified alpha figure, while people just playing for fun wouldn't.

How prevalent this is in the shared narrative community is a seperate issue, my guess is quite prevalent. This is based on the vocal internet community of course, but I don't think there's much of a community outside the internet, unlike RPGs.

Which then raises the question of how exactly that hobby could view itself as egalitarian in any way, since as per crane's clear comments (not what he meant to say, or someone's interpretation of it, what he actually said) it's his way or the highway. Not a whole lot of sharing going on there. And yet he's held up as a poster boy by that group.

I saw something similar on rpgnet a while back, someone started a thread complaining in a here-we-go-again tone about a player who had the temerity to try and keep character secrets from the rest of the group and from the GM-person. Apparently several hours were spent trying to bully and cajole this girl into sharing her secret. It took twelve pages of sympathetic noises before someone suggested this might not have been a good thing.

I mean sure there are dicks in all walks of life, but it's not often you see being a dick baked into a game and made a copperfastened requirement.

Quote from: Benoist;648994Reinventing the (Burning) Wheel: the Forgist Resource Management Game.

Yes, fucking fantasy vietnam, seems like!

Quote from: Kanye Westeros;652431The second is, I don't usually get to play with people who are friends. I usually play in a club setup and so I have no idea who will be turning up from fortnight to fortnight. Rules help minimise arguments that rulings are prone to spark, especially with people who are not your friends.

Normal people settle disagreements as a matter of course. Those who can't casually throw out accusations of misanthropy and cower behind rigid social structures to cover their failings.

Thank you for confirming that you are, in fact, a failure as a human being.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;652578Normal people settle disagreements as a matter of course. Those who can't casually throw out accusations of misanthropy and cower behind rigid social structures to cover their failings.

Thank you for confirming that you are, in fact, a failure as a human being.

This is at the heart of things right here. I play in games at gamedays and often I will be playing with folks that I don't know very well. Somehow, we all manage to play together and have a good time because being a dick to someone just because you aren't already close friends isn't a high priority impulse.

This is the kind of shit you learned early on in grade school. Basic social interaction. Those who failed to learn these lessons have no business playing rpgs.