Quote from: Anon Adderlan;651878Especially ironic here, as this is precisely the basis for Ron's Brain Damage Premise
.

I'm not sure that's irony, but if Ron had meant people like Mr. GC, Gleichmann, or a few of the Big Purple's mods, I don't think I'd disagree with him.

Quote from: Sommerjon;651776When someone is being absurd, not really.  You do realize you are talking about someone who hates storywanking, but has no problem with plot.  You do realize you can't have one without the other.

You are quite wrong. My campaigns feature multiple plots and remain free of storywanking.

None of the plots belong to me, as the GM. The PCs get mixed up in some of them and ignore others, and world moves on. Its quite easy to do.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;652201You are quite wrong. My campaigns feature multiple plots and remain free of storywanking.

Moreover, a lot of the campaigns that do involve storywanking, don't tend to give much priority to plot (in the sense of something that is largely pre-determined).

This is the whole division between story before ('I've written a story, let's play through it'), story now ('let's actively create a story through our character's actions'), story after ('let's just play and then retcon things into a narrative later'), and story not at all ('fuck story').

Quote from: Exploderwizard;652201You are quite wrong. My campaigns feature multiple plots and remain free of storywanking.

None of the plots belong to me, as the GM. The PCs get mixed up in some of them and ignore others, and world moves on. Its quite easy to do.

No I'm not.  I don't live in this pass/fail world this place lives in when it comes to 'storywanking'.

Some Plot Hook that is tossed to the PCs and continues along it's path whether they interact with it or not is a fucking story, trying to say it's 'world continues to move' 'just playing the setting' or whatever is bullshit sophistry.

Quote from: Sommerjon;652244No I'm not.  I don't live in this pass/fail world this place lives in when it comes to 'storywanking'.

Some Plot Hook that is tossed to the PCs and continues along it's path whether they interact with it or not is a fucking story, trying to say it's 'world continues to move' 'just playing the setting' or whatever is bullshit sophistry.

So you cannot tell roleplaying from from shared narrative gaming. A lot of hipsters have the same problem. No biggie.

Quote from: Sommerjon;652244No I'm not.  I don't live in this pass/fail world this place lives in when it comes to 'storywanking'.

Some Plot Hook that is tossed to the PCs and continues along it's path whether they interact with it or not is a fucking story, trying to say it's 'world continues to move' 'just playing the setting' or whatever is bullshit sophistry.

I don't think storygames are bad or aren't rpgs, and I think if you want story in your game that is totally fine. But I think it is also a bit of sophistry as well to say everything is a story in the sense people are talking about here. Sometimes people say 'the story' to mean the in-game game events that are not combat. And I think that is a fair use of the word, if potentially ambiguous. But that doesn't mean when a GM has something happen in the game world, that is the same as a story or narrative in the way people are talking about in narrative rpgs. Again, I have zero problem with these kinds of games, but I do find it strange when people make the all rpgs are story games argument.

The last few pages of this discussion have become completely retarded, because there's no expectation of good faith whatsoever. It's just about sticking it to the asshole who posted before. There's no point to it.

Quote from: Benoist;652253The last few pages of this discussion have become completely retarded, because there's no expectation of good faith whatsoever. It's just about sticking it to the asshole who posted before. There's no point to it.

Welcome to the adult swim!

I mean, I agree with you, but this goes on a lot around here. Even you non-swine guys seem to all hate each other. It drowns out some good discussions IMO.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;652246So you cannot tell roleplaying from shared narrative gaming. A lot of hipsters have the same problem. No biggie.

Like I said Pass/Fail.

Just want you to realize everywhere else what you do is called shared narrative.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652251Again, I have zero problem with these kinds of games, but I do find it strange when people make the all rpgs are story games argument.

They are all rpgs to me, don't care if it's D&D, CoC, Mountain Witch, or Sorcerer  When those games are played you are playing a role in that game,  That is roleplaying.  Adding further definitions to rpgs to make oneself feel superior to what they over there are doing is infantile, but then again we are on a website based 100% around that I need to feel superior concept.

Quote from: Sommerjon;652309They are all rpgs to me, don't care if it's D&D, CoC, Mountain Witch, or Sorcerer  When those games are played you are playing a role in that game,  That is roleplaying.  Adding further definitions to rpgs to make oneself feel superior to what they over there are doing is infantile, but then again we are on a website based 100% around that I need to feel superior concept.

:rolleyes:

Of course you don't. By that definition all boardgames are RPGs, because you play a role of a military commander/railroad tycoon/ghost hunter etc. etc.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652251I don't think storygames are bad or aren't rpgs, and I think if you want story in your game that is totally fine. But I think it is also a bit of sophistry as well to say everything is a story in the sense people are talking about here. Sometimes people say 'the story' to mean the in-game game events that are not combat. And I think that is a fair use of the word, if potentially ambiguous. But that doesn't mean when a GM has something happen in the game world, that is the same as a story or narrative in the way people are talking about in narrative rpgs. Again, I have zero problem with these kinds of games, but I do find it strange when people make the all rpgs are story games argument.

I disagree. The distinction is important, if only because a definition too broad renders the very concept of a definition moot. And story in an RPG does not equal storygame.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652315I disagree. The distinction is important, if only because a definition too broad renders the very concept of a definition moot.

Clearly I am somewhat in the minority here. But personally I am not enamored with all the efforts to define rpg so narrowly or to say a game with this mechanic or that mechanic isnt a true rpg. Feels like it is becoming too much of a purity test.

I do think some distinction is handy. In a game has heavy narrative mechanics, I would certainly like to know before I buy it, so I appreciate publishers indicating that in some way (I would be fine with calling them narrative rpgs for example). But when I pick up an rpg and play it, my concern is whether I like it, not whether it has an element that makes it no longer an rpg. And I am not terribly worried about how others use the label. At the same time, when I see posters acting like narrative mechanics are no different from traditional ones, or identical to things like attack rolls, then I understand where some of the hostility and debate is coming from.

QuoteAnd story in an RPG does not equal storygame.

I agree. That is the point I was trying to make.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652315:rolleyes:

Of course you don't. By that definition all boardgames are RPGs, because you play a role of a military commander/railroad tycoon/ghost hunter etc. etc.

I've seen more roleplaying in a game of Uno than most of the kiddies today manage in any "true" RPG.

Quote from: Rincewind1;652315I disagree. The distinction is important, if only because a definition too broad renders the very concept of a definition moot. And story in an RPG does not equal storygame.

The RP in RPG stands for "roleplaying." The G stands for "Game." To be a roleplaying game, one would think it would need both elements. One would also think that, perhaps, there's room for some variation in the ratio between the two and still fit within the overall definition. Push too far in one direction, and you lose the game; roleplaying becomes improvisational acting. Push too far the in other, and you lose the roleplaying; the game because a board game. The trick is where the lines are drawn. Yes, it can be useful to distinguish between the more extreme ends, but all too often, the argument isn't over where the lines are, but rather, over what words to use to describe them.

There isn't one right answer. There isn't even one right answer per player. Those who claim otherwise are generally more interested in proving they're right than in being right.

The only distinction I give a shit about is "games I like" and "games that suck donkey dick."

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652318Clearly I am somewhat in the minority here. But personally I am not enamored with all the efforts to define rpg so narrowly or to say a game with this mechanic or that mechanic isnt a true rpg. Feels like it is becoming too much of a purity test.

I do think some distinction is handy. In a game has heavy narrative mechanics, I would certainly like to know before I buy it, so I appreciate publishers indicating that in some way (I would be fine with calling them narrative rpgs for example). But when I pick up an rpg and play it, my concern is whether I like it, not whether it has an element that makes it no longer an rpg. And I am not terribly worried about how others use the label. At the same time, when I see posters acting like narrative mechanics are no different from traditional ones, or identical to things like attack rolls, then I understand where some of the hostility and debate is coming from.




I agree. That is the point I was trying to make.

We're agreed on the latter part then.

As for the former  - it's alright, I don't equal narrative elements to storygame, and I was perhaps in the wrong on Torchbearer. Then again, sometimes the distinction is quite hard - for example, is InSpectres an RPG or a storygame? Technically an RPG, because you control a specific character and there's a GM who creates the world etc. etc. But on the other hand, it is a storygame, in my opinion at least, because all the actions you conclude as the character, are done so with using a very narrational mechanic, as well as the fact that every success in your skill check in that game, directly correlates to advancement of the story - and I do mean directly.

So in my opinion, and I think of some others as well, a storygame is when you do have a character, but he exists as your author's avatar within the joint creation, so to speak. And alongside that, goes the importance of actually a pre - set "story" at the table, that's supposed to be constructed.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;652318Clearly I am somewhat in the minority here. But personally I am not enamored with all the efforts to define rpg so narrowly or to say a game with this mechanic or that mechanic isnt a true rpg. Feels like it is becoming too much of a purity test.

I don't think defining tabletop RPGs as games that focus on players acting as individual characters within a setting where their actions are adjudicated by a human referee is very narrow at all.

I feel also it accurate as to what distinguished RPGs from their predecessors. And why tabletop RPGs are not just wargames despite many similarities especially in the combat rules.

Since then other types of roleplaying games has developed LARPS, MMORPGs, CRPGS, etc. Each replacing elements of tabletop roleplaying games with their own unique elements.

The storytelling games is that by focusing on the narrative and sharing the adjudication of the narrative are better off trying to be their own thing rather than remaining as part of the tabletop roleplaying. Because narrative mechanics invariably forces the players to act as a player which I feel distract from the roleplaying as individual characters.

Much like when people tried to use CRPGs or MMORPGs as part of a tabletop
roleplaying campaign. (especially Bioware's Neverwinter Nights) It could be made work but not very well and with a lot of caveats. What finally worked for tabletop was taking the traditional RPG Utility and combining it with chat, dice roller, and whiteboard. I.E. the virtual tabletop.