Quote from: The Traveller;652064I'd have thought the context was pretty clear from the preceding words "There's a long chain of innovation and compensation involved with D&D, some people got compensated, some didn't do as well". I mean it takes a bit of work not to understand that, but you managed it alright.

Great, we agree. Yay.

QuotePossibly you missed how the original name for the project was Ds & Ds, but they decided against it for legal reasons. Not because it wasn't a knockoff but because they were afraid of being sued. Dungeon World is what I'd call an homage in many ways. This tripe is a cynical cash grabbing knockoff, and really obviously so.

Lots of projects have place-holder titles, place-holder art, place-holder music, place-holder whatevers, until the creators come up with the actual titles, art, music, etc.

Near as I can tell this is Crane and buddies wondering what the heck this OSR stuff is all about, grabbing B/X and giving it a try, RAW naturally because they like rules, and deciding that this sub-system that a lot of people ignore is the core of the experience, so "let's build a game around that".

I don't see it so much as a cynical cash grabbing knock off as a missing the point by focusing on one tree in the forest* (resource management in the dungeon) and writing a game that does that and only that. I'll admit I'm curious to see what they came up with. Not funding the kickstarter curious, just curious. And since I'm from the "house rule it as you're reading it" school, if there's anything I can rip off in there I will, and if there is, the first thing on the chopping block is the arbitrary length turns.

*Storygamer goes to a concert, and writes a game about the struggles of selling merchandise. Storygamer goes to a soccer game, and spends the whole  match watching the assistant refs running in straight lines at the side of the field waving flags. Storygamer goes to a tennis match and decides it must be a form of group neck-exercising. Storygamer plays B/X and decides it's a game about tracking torches and rations. Which is fine if that's what floats your boat; I don't get it, but whatever.

Quote from: apparition13;652110Lots of projects have place-holder titles, place-holder art, place-holder music, place-holder whatevers, until the creators come up with the actual titles, art, music, etc.

Yeah but he specifically said it was changed for legal reasons:

QuoteFor a long time the game had a working title of Dungeoneers & Dragonslayers, or "Ds & Ds." This was meant to evoke the original dungeon crawler, but was later changed to avoid any possible legal conflicts.

Quote from: apparition13;652110Near as I can tell this is Crane and buddies wondering what the heck this OSR stuff is all about, grabbing B/X and giving it a try, RAW naturally because they like rules, and deciding that this sub-system that a lot of people ignore is the core of the experience, so "let's build a game around that".

I dunno, he learned at the knee of ron edwards and still recounts fondly the wisdom of the bane of the brain damaged ones. I mean check out this gem:

QuoteWell, I picked up on this from listening to Ron Edwards. He's excellent at analyzing PLAYERS at the table, and he's taught me a lot.

Often a turtle is reacting to some other abuse in the past where his participation in the game was ruthlessly crushed by the GM. But in such a way that the player still wants to play, but is terrified of offering any meaningful input, because he just assumes the GM is going to shit on him.

The other side of turtles is the "My Guy" syndrome. As in, "My guy wouldn't do that." Which is complete bullshit. But these players are tough to crack.

I've actually had players take up the Captain character in "The Gift" and say, "I'm not going to do anything, I like the character as he's written." Why do they even fucking play the game, then? Are they gamer voyeurs? I never understood willfully NOT participating in game because of something you perceive (WRONGLY) on the character sheet.

It's every player's responsibility to get into the mix with his priorities. Yes, responsibility. It's the player's main job at the table: Put something on the line so we can all say, "cool!" My demos are meant to be training for that type of behavior.

I mean first of all Ichabod did it occur to you that 'turtles' aren't reacting to past GM abuse but are intimidated by the raving lunatic shouting at them to get involved at the game table? The second part doesn't even make any sense, 'my guy wouldn't do that'? That's what roleplaying is, stepping into character, getting immersed.

No, doesn't seem like the apple fell far from the tree at all.

Quote from: Spinachcat;652100Traveller and Champions may have used his RPG idea, but at least they did it in different genres.

Not just different genres, but radically different systems as well. Give credit to that at least.

Quote from: Luke CraneI look like a complete fucking goober

I’m a bully, I’m hyper competitive and I adore the use of “force” and “illusionism”

The most honest words by Beast Indie Game Designer ever said.

Quote from: The Traveller;652113Yeah but he specifically said it was changed for legal reasons:




I dunno, he learned at the knee of ron edwards and still recounts fondly the wisdom of the bane of the brain damaged ones. I mean check out this gem:

I mean first of all Ichabod did it occur to you that 'turtles' aren't reacting to past GM abuse but are intimidated by the raving lunatic shouting at them to get involved at the game table? The second part doesn't even make any sense, 'my guy wouldn't do that'? That's what roleplaying is, stepping into character, getting immersed.

No, doesn't seem like the apple fell far from the tree at all.

That's really interesting.
I checked out the con game 'The Gift' that he talks about and reading it makes a lot of Burning Wheel suddenly come into focus.
The Gift is downloadable here http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#The_Gift
Its set up as a diplomatic incident between a noble elf prince (a PC) and a noble dwarf prince (another PC), with the other PCs also high ranking aides to each side. The Beliefs and Instincts of the characters are set up to cause as much antagonizing and bitching between the PCs as possible i.e. one of the elves explicitly hates dwarves, a dwarf has a grudge against another dwarf, the elf prince has some traits about loving his mithril armour which would otherwise be a useful 'gift' to smooth over the diplomatic mess and so on.

:hmm: It seems BW has all its convoluted subsystems for diplomacy because they're designed to be used by players, against other players.
Translating the interview, "My Guy" players who don't like having what they're character does dictated by the dice roll (i.e. other player's social combat results). I expect "turtles" are just players who don't get into massive player-vs-player douchebaggery. The con game looks like it flat-out doesn't work unless all the PCs are at each others throats.
tl;dr: the Burning Wheel rules actually make sense when you realize Burning Wheel is a game by douches for douches.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652121That's really interesting.
I checked out the con game 'The Gift' that he talks about and reading it makes a lot of Burning Wheel suddenly come into focus.
The Gift is downloadable here http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#The_Gift
Its set up as a diplomatic incident between a noble elf prince (a PC) and a noble dwarf prince (another PC), with the other PCs also high ranking aides to each side. The Beliefs and Instincts of the characters are set up to cause as much antagonizing and bitching between the PCs as possible i.e. one of the elves explicitly hates dwarves, a dwarf has a grudge against another dwarf, the elf prince has some traits about loving his mithril armour which would otherwise be a useful 'gift' to smooth over the diplomatic mess and so on.

:hmm: It seems BW has all its convoluted subsystems for diplomacy because they're designed to be used by players, against other players.
Translating the interview, "My Guy" players who don't like having what they're character does dictated by the dice roll (i.e. other player's social combat results). I expect "turtles" are just players who don't get into massive player-vs-player douchebaggery. The con game looks like it flat-out doesn't work unless all the PCs are at each others throats.
tl;dr: the Burning Wheel rules actually make sense when you realize Burning Wheel is a game by douches for douches.

You know what's a good competitive highly diplomatic game?

Game of Thrones Board Game.

And it has no rules for diplomacy save one for Support action >,<

In other words, BW would work best as a board game, except often board games achieve the PvP epic diplomacy without so much hassle.

So in yet other words, if BW was a person, he'd be a Timetable manager - someone much more complicated than a machine, but whose job can be better handled by a computer script.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652121:hmm: It seems BW has all its convoluted subsystems for diplomacy because they're designed to be used by players, against other players.
Translating the interview, "My Guy" players who don't like having what they're character does dictated by the dice roll (i.e. other player's social combat results). I expect "turtles" are just players who don't get into massive player-vs-player douchebaggery. The con game looks like it flat-out doesn't work unless all the PCs are at each others throats.

All while nero fiddles away merrily at the top of the table.

For a group vociferously dedicated to seeing off dick railroady GMs they seem to be doing an awfully good impression of dick railroady GMs.

Quote from: The Traveller;652123All while nero fiddles away merrily at the top of the table.

For a group vociferously dedicated to seeing off dick railroady GMs they seem to be doing an awfully good impression of dick railroady GMs.

When you stare into the Abyss...

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652121the Burning Wheel rules actually make sense when you realize Burning Wheel is a game by douches for douches.

Well, there is something to that.  If you read the sidebars in the first printing as well as checked out the forums back in the day, it was very apparent that a lot of the rules baked into Burning Wheel were due to problems at the table.  The BW crew is a bunch of NY guys who seem to be friends always arguing and taking shots at each other.  Get into gaming and not only does Crane want to avoid being accused of fudging something out of revenge for some earlier disagreement, but he actually admits he wants to eliminate the ability of himself to do that.

So we get a game with lots of rules constraining everyone even the GM.  Once again, the new school shows that one of the primary foci of their game design is fixing and limiting bad behavior.

Quote from: CRKrueger;652134Once again, the new school shows that one of the primary foci of their game design is fixing and limiting bad behavior.

...and yet somehow creating stunningly worse behaviour in the process.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652121The con game looks like it flat-out doesn't work unless all the PCs are at each others throats.

So Amber Diceless, then.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652121That's really interesting.
I checked out the con game 'The Gift' that he talks about and reading it makes a lot of Burning Wheel suddenly come into focus.
The Gift is downloadable here http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#The_Gift
Its set up as a diplomatic incident between a noble elf prince (a PC) and a noble dwarf prince (another PC), with the other PCs also high ranking aides to each side. The Beliefs and Instincts of the characters are set up to cause as much antagonizing and bitching between the PCs as possible i.e. one of the elves explicitly hates dwarves, a dwarf has a grudge against another dwarf, the elf prince has some traits about loving his mithril armour which would otherwise be a useful 'gift' to smooth over the diplomatic mess and so on.

:hmm: It seems BW has all its convoluted subsystems for diplomacy because they're designed to be used by players, against other players.
Translating the interview, "My Guy" players who don't like having what they're character does dictated by the dice roll (i.e. other player's social combat results). I expect "turtles" are just players who don't get into massive player-vs-player douchebaggery. The con game looks like it flat-out doesn't work unless all the PCs are at each others throats.
tl;dr: the Burning Wheel rules actually make sense when you realize Burning Wheel is a game by douches for douches.

There is nothing douchey about a game where players are negotiating against each other.  That game is called Diplomacy.  There is a version played competitively in college called Negotiation, and a similar one I played in law school for family law.  Not sure why you'd be butt hurt about the concept - except that it's not necessarily what I would describe as an RPG.  Certainly not a traditional RPG.  But inherently just for douches? Sounds like badwrongfun to me.

One of these days I should dig up an old Negotiation rules set from college.  Each player got a character with certain known interests, and certain secret  interests.  Scoring was particularized to each individual, as not everything was worth the same to everyone else, and nobody really knows who wins until the deal is done and you tally the scores based on each player's personal scoring chart.  It was a blast!

Quote from: Mistwell;652148There is nothing douchey about a game where players are negotiating against each other.  That game is called Diplomacy.  There is a version played competitively in college called Negotiation, and a similar one I played in law school for family law.  Not sure why you'd be butt hurt about the concept - except that it's not necessarily what I would describe as an RPG.  Certainly not a traditional RPG.  But inherently just for douches? Sounds like badwrongfun to me.

Sancho! My armor!

Quote from: Mistwell;652148One of these days I should dig up an old Negotiation rules set from college.  Each player got a character with certain known interests, and certain secret  interests.  Scoring was particularized to each individual, as not everything was worth the same to everyone else, and nobody really knows who wins until the deal is done and you tally the scores based on each player's personal scoring chart.  It was a blast!

So they are set up to backstab and fuck each other over in accordance to the rules. Sounds like douchebaggery to me.

I'd rather just play a hand of Munchkin instead. At least then I know that the game I am playing is not trying the hide the fact that Player-killing is part of the game.

Quote from: Mistwell;652148Not sure why you'd be butt hurt about the concept - except that it's not necessarily what I would describe as an RPG.  Certainly not a traditional RPG.  But inherently just for douches? Sounds like badwrongfun to me.

I'm butthurt at Crane describing people as "turtles" if they don't get into backstabbing or buttfucking everyone else in the game, if you must know.

Damned if I can find the link now, but which I was trying to find the gift link originally there was a thread where Crane described his 'best ever' session of the gift as one where the elf ranger character killed someone on their own side for negotiating with the dwarves and then got wasted themselves.

We've slit a few throats* of party members in Warhammer, and we managed to do so without Betrayal micro mechanic.


*Once it was a necromancer who went too far with his class diseases, one developed open mutations and one was actually a former party member who ran off with the loot once and opened business with his ill - gotten grains.