Quote from: apparition13;651738And failed. All they did was create a niche for people who like their way of gaming.

If highlighting the right wing cult that resulted in shared narrative games makes some people uncomfortable, maybe they should be looking a little more closely at what they decide to get involved in.

Quote from: apparition13;651738Innovators are rarely the people who make the  money. It's the people who innovate on the basic ideas who make the money.

So what you're saying is that innovators don't make money, innovators make money.

I see.

Quote from: jeff37923;651701Your analysis has cut me to the quick. I must now go and commit ritual seppuku by falling on my keyboard because my secret is out. Goodbye cruel world! I was unmasked by the White Knight! Heed his words with caution lest you suffer my same fate!

LOL touche'.

Quote from: The Traveller;651739If highlighting the right wing cult that resulted in shared narrative games makes some people uncomfortable, maybe they should be looking a little more closely at what they decide to get involved in.

Woah hey wait a second there motherfucker.  RIGHT WING cult? Sorry, that's just wrong.  

First, this is entirely apolitical. I am sure those games attract people of all political persuasions, nor were they motivated by ideological political considerations that are characterized as left or right wing.

Second, if one were forced to characterize the concept of enforcing "equality" over all else as a value for gaming, which is what storygames attempt to do by decreasing the "power" of the GM while increasing the "power" of the players so that they are all
"equal" in power over the "story" they are all "jointly telling", one would characterize that as a more socialist (and therefore left-wing) concept than anything else.  Though, again, I think it is ridiculous to make this political at all.

WTF is with the wingnuts trying to make this battle about politics? First FASERIP with his "Obama D&D" comment about 5e being too storygame for him, and now you with your "right-wing cult" about storygames? Leave your political psychosis at the door mang, this is about games and not your pet political theories and political psychologies.

Quote from: Mistwell;651742WTF is with the wingnuts trying to make this battle about politics?

A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Quote from: Mistwell;651742Woah hey wait a second there motherfucker.  RIGHT WING cult? Sorry, that's just wrong.  

Oh get fucked you greasy skidmark, your first interaction with me was to claim I was a dickhead based on my avatar. You've managed to maintain about that monotone level of dialogue ever since so I guess kudos for being consistent at least.

Quote from: Mistwell;651742First, this is entirely apolitical. I am sure those games attract people of all political persuasions, nor were they motivated by ideological political considerations that are characterized as left or right wing.

Interesting, I've often felt that the shared narrative, er, narrative was one of gaming mimicking the marxist evolution from feudalism to socialism, a single pivot of power changing to shared power. Yes, that is completely ignorant on numerous levels, I never claimed they were smart.

Quote from: Mistwell;651742Second, if one were forced to characterize the concept of enforcing "equality" over all else as a value for gaming, which is what storygames attempt to do by decreasing the "power" of the GM while increasing the "power" of the players, one would characterize that as a more socialist (and therefore left-wing) concept than anything else.  Though, again, I think it is ridiculous to make this political at all.

A rose is a rose etc. Totalitarianism is the pervasive influence of the state in all aspects of life, and given the addiction to personality cults evinced by the necksters among other things it's not at all far off conceptually.

Quote from: Mistwell;651742WTF is with the wingnuts trying to make this battle about politics? First FASERIP with his "Obama D&D" comment about 5e being too storygame for him, and now you with your "right-wing cult" about storygames? Leave your political psychosis at the door mang, this is about games and not your pet political theories and political psychologies.

As coherent as usual I see. A 'wingnut' is an extremist from either wing, I'm an extremist from the centre. As for political psychologies, if it barks like a duck and looks like a dog, well you see where I'm going with this.

Quote from: The Traveller;651747Oh get fucked you greasy skidmark, your first interaction with me was to claim I was a dickhead based on my avatar.

I'm sorry, but I don't recall that (I am sure it happened, I just honestly do not remember).  What was your avatar that made me insult you for it?

QuoteYou've managed to maintain about that monotone level of dialogue ever since so I guess kudos for being consistent at least.

Interesting, I've often felt that the shared narrative, er, narrative was one of gaming mimicking the marxist evolution from feudalism to socialism, a single pivot of power changing to shared power. Yes, that is completely ignorant on numerous levels, I never claimed they were smart.

A rose is a rose etc. Totalitarianism is the pervasive influence of the state in all aspects of life, and given the addiction to personality cults evinced by the necksters among other things it's not at all far off conceptually.

As coherent as usual I see. A 'wingnut' is an extremist from either wing, I'm an extremist from the centre. As for political psychologies, if it barks like a duck and looks like a dog, well you see where I'm going with this.

Well, while I disagree with your position, I appreciate you had some cogent reasoning behind it.  

I disagree that totalitarianism and personality cults are inherently right-wing in nature (which I believe is what you just implied, when tying it back to your right-wing cult comment).  Off the top of my head, all of the following are left wing totalitarians who had personality cults: Stalin, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Kim Jong-il (and both his father and son), and Mao.  And of course I could name as many that were right-wing in nature.  Personality cults and totalitarianism are not a right-wing or a left-win thing, they can come in both flavors.

Knock it off with the politics, please.

Quote from: Mistwell;651749I'm sorry, but I don't recall that (I am sure it happened, I just honestly do not remember).  What was your avatar that made me insult you for it?

I suspect you thought I was a hipster. I don't care about hipsters any more than I cared about goths, hippies, moshers, candy ravers, or the connoisseurs of classical music, but it seemed the most likely reason. The actual avatar was Dr Steel, which is a very different message. You can find his work on youtube.

Quote from: Mistwell;651749I disagree that totalitarianism and personality cults are inherently right-wing in nature (which I believe is what you just implied, when tying it back to your right-wing cult comment).  Off the top of my head, all of the following are left wing totalitarians who had personality cults: Stalin, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Kim Jong-il (and both his father and son), and Mao.  And of course I could name as many that were right-wing in nature.  Personality cults and totalitarianism are not a right-wing or a left-win thing, they can come in both flavors.

Yes but you failed to consider that this was a tactic calculated to incense the shared narrative crowd who are no doubt paying attention to this thread, as OHT mentioned earlier, and has been previously used as a successful behaviour adjuster since they notably identify with the left. Whether that leads to them joining the discussion, becoming even more radicalised and hence increasing the coverage of this site, or changing their minds, makes little difference.

Of course it's kind of fucked now I had to explain it.

Quote from: The Traveller;651753I suspect you thought I was a hipster. I don't care about hipsters any more than I cared about goths, hippies, moshers, candy ravers, or the connoisseurs of classical music, but it seemed the most likely reason. The actual avatar was Dr Steel, which is a very different message. You can find his work on youtube.


Yes but you failed to consider that this was a tactic calculated to incense the shared narrative crowd who are no doubt paying attention to this thread, as OHT mentioned earlier, and has been previously used as a successful behaviour adjuster since they notably identify with the left. Whether that leads to them joining the discussion, becoming even more radicalised and hence increasing the coverage of this site, or changing their minds, makes little difference.

Of course it's kind of fucked now I had to explain it.

Well fuck dude, my bad.  Had I know you were just trying to tweak their noses I'd have joined in.

Quote from: Mistwell;651754Well fuck dude, my bad.  Had I know you were just trying to tweak their noses I'd have joined in.

Well maybe next time.

Quote from: Mistwell;651741LOL touche'.

Yeah, my keyboard turned out to not be sharp enough anyways.

Quote from: Mistwell;651754Well fuck dude, my bad.  Had I know you were just trying to tweak their noses I'd have joined in.

See what you get for White Knighting at the drop of a hat? Ditch the horse and lance, come walk with us for a change.

Quote from: The Traveller;651753I suspect you thought I was a hipster. I don't care about hipsters any more than I cared about goths, hippies, moshers, candy ravers, or the connoisseurs of classical music, but it seemed the most likely reason. The actual avatar was Dr Steel, which is a very different message. You can find his work on youtube.


Yes but you failed to consider that this was a tactic calculated to incense the shared narrative crowd who are no doubt paying attention to this thread, as OHT mentioned earlier, and has been previously used as a successful behaviour adjuster since they notably identify with the left. Whether that leads to them joining the discussion, becoming even more radicalised and hence increasing the coverage of this site, or changing their minds, makes little difference.

Of course it's kind of fucked now I had to explain it.

I'm glad we're having avatar drama, we can compare our ponies next. But yes, I'm afraid you dissected that frog, Traveller. It was a good attempt though!

Since I have overestimated the intelligence of Internet Tough Guy(s), and no Ken, I don't mean you, who wanted to show how cool and adult they are when it comes to gaming, and they are totally the cool, not too nerdy nerds, I'll elaborate what I mean by the "war" allegory. Because I didn't mean Forge vs Trad RPGs or any of that, I meant much bigger picture.

There is a "cultural war" going on in the background of entertainment business, and for good reasons. A lot of money rides on it, and in capitalism, investor is key. When a man wants to know where putting his dollar will give him the most dollars back, when it comes to the entertainment industry, he has a lot of things to choose, from sports through films to yes, games. And people responsible for their brands of entertainment, want those bucks going their way - to earn a living, as well as, in some cases, send a message. Or even for the industry itself to exist. And entertainment is of course, very important to us. It's only mindless fun if one decides it to be mindless. I'm not saying that every person who watches films should grab a camera and become a director, but we can often see that if we engage in entertainment on more than just "first" level, we begin to develop or at least train some skills - and nowhere is this more apparent than in active forms of entertainment, such as sports and tabletop games.

But yes, even if, RPGs don't matter like that, right? I mean, they are riding on the tiniest of pieces of culture, where revenue is counted in millions only by WoTC. While board games may now be a staple of family life in Germany, where it's normal to play not even just monopoly but such games as High Voltage on Sunday, RPGs are (at least supposedly, I'm still split on the whole issue) in the drain, at least compared to the "glory days".

Well, that's true, but there is one sliver of light.. Because next to p&p RPG is the cousin that grew out and turned out to be a multimillionaire - video games. We can see the same problems in video game business, except alongside few unique to their own (such as graphics race, video games as their own medium, etc etc). The problems are between video games as medium for storytelling, or as for making your own story, or as a medium to explore the worlds, or as a medium to engage in film like action...etc. etc. We've been through all that stuff in RPGs already, and in terms of Sandbox, video games have both lost the way for a good while, and are both only catching up to what paper RPGs could do ages ago. Not to mention that video game designers often played or at least heard of RPGs (Fallouts? Halo level designers? Whole BioWare?), though probably nowadays this is much less common than it used to be. Some questions that the video game industry is asking itself, were already answered in RPGs. Most importantly - whether games serve to tell a story, or to allow an user to create their own, and if so, how - should they enforce a genre emulation, or should the story come organic from gameplay.

And there are millions of dollars riding on the choices here, whether people prefer to have the story told to them (Mass Effect), play and witness the story in a cinematic manner (Call of Duty), or for the story to be emergent from gameplay (Elder Scrolls). And while perhaps in the tail end of the whole discussion, but the RPGs are still there. If only because more and more games feature "RPG - like "elements, and the video game RPGs are still doing quite good. And since a lot of video game designers had RPG experience, and they will, as well as vice versa, the trends in both mediums will react to each others.

Quote from: Drohem;651724So who is Sgt. Barnes and who is Sgt. Elias?

Is Pundit Elias and Crane Barnes?

Does that make the rest of us Pvt. Talyor?

I'd say we're more the crowd in the hospital from Born On the 4th of July.

Quote from: jeff37923;651781See what you get for White Knighting at the drop of a hat? Ditch the horse and lance, come walk with us for a change.

It's a difficult habit to break.  Particularly since I think there is a lot of use that comes from playing Devil's Advocate, which is the kinder way of saying White Knight.

I think Penn, of Penn and Teller, expresses it well here (starting around 3:50 and going to about 4:50).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14q_1NlhE9I&feature=youtu.be&t=3m53s

Benoist already asked that people stop with the politics. If you want to discuss that stuff either open a thread in Pundit's subforum, where it will sink or swim on his judgment, or go to rpg.net.