Quote from: Grymbok;651311I think it rather depends on the specific implementation of X Points that we're talking about.

Yeah it's not really enough to talk about them in a blanket way. I use two kinds of points of this sort, first is luck, which refreshes at the beginning of each game. It's not much, just enough to edge maybe one or two rolls over the top in the entire game. Nice to have but you won't be rocking any worlds with it.

Second are fate points which are a bit heavier, but they don't refresh. Each PC starts out with 3, more can be purchased at an very steep cost, most don't and rarely use them because they can backfire spectacularly. You can make that bowshot at the dragon's one weak point from three hundred meters away at night using them, but there's a one in three chance of a critical failure, which would probably mean the dragon turns, sees you, and decides to spend the rest of its existence trying to end yours.

It's a flavourful mix which gives legroom where needed without causing any imbalance.

Quote from: gleichman;651182The language of moral relativism finds it way into everything, and leaving standards for nothing.

Yeesh, I actually defended this queerbait many moons ago.

I beg forgiveness.

Mods, please reinstate Pseudo.

Quote from: Spinachcat;651189I want "Power Points" in space opera or high fantasy or any other cinematic game where my PC is supposed to be the Big Damn Hero and quite usually save the day.

I don't even mind Fate Points in Warhammer where Sigmar watches over those who strive against the darkness threatening his Empire.

But they don't belong in gritty settings where life is cheap, even a hero's life.

This.

I run a lot of pulp games - S&S, 1930s detectives, Hollow Earth, etc. For that I want points players can spend to give that cinematic action/pulpy feel.

I also run Call of Cthulhu. In CoC and similar games, it's a hard, hard world.

Quote from: gleichman;651174You don't need hero points for that. Just a good resolution system.

they are part of the resolution system; they are not separate.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;651329they are part of the resolution system; they are not separate.

For once, I agree with Ghost Whistler!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;651329they are part of the resolution system; they are not separate.

What system do you have in mind when you say that?

Quote from: Claudius;651339For once, I agree with Ghost Whistler!

They all come around, in the end...

Quote from: Grymbok;651340What system do you have in mind when you say that?

Any system that uses them.

Individual systems may succeed integrating them better than others.

However what is also important is how they are earned. Karma is earned through being super and heroic. These points dont' represent a direct causal link between skill and enhanced result, but a more thematic approach. This is not appropriate for every rpg, but it is for some. Buffy for instance mitigates the physically weaker white hats by giving them more narrative power. In this way Xander isn't eaten by the vamps each week. Conversely Buffy herself just kicks ass because she's a Slayer.

The purpose of X points isn't to stop pc's failing. it's to stop them failing when it would suck for them to do so.

Any rpg system is going to have the potential for a really promising effort to fall flat on its face. I don't see how you can mitigate that.

Whether you use that as part of the story is another matter.

Quote from: FASERIP;651320Yeesh, I actually defended this queerbait many moons ago.

I beg forgiveness.

Mods, please reinstate Pseudo.

It's ok everybody makes mistakes. As for the subject at hand? Fate Points or whatever are fine because they give a bit of control to the player and/or encourage some chance taking on top of allowing the GM to set the tone of the game from gritty to over the top.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;651349Any system that uses them.

Individual systems may succeed integrating them better than others.

However what is also important is how they are earned. Karma is earned through being super and heroic. These points dont' represent a direct causal link between skill and enhanced result, but a more thematic approach. This is not appropriate for every rpg, but it is for some. Buffy for instance mitigates the physically weaker white hats by giving them more narrative power. In this way Xander isn't eaten by the vamps each week. Conversely Buffy herself just kicks ass because she's a Slayer.

The purpose of X points isn't to stop pc's failing. it's to stop them failing when it would suck for them to do so.

Any rpg system is going to have the potential for a really promising effort to fall flat on its face. I don't see how you can mitigate that.

Whether you use that as part of the story is another matter.

I just can't see "re-roll points" as being a part of a resolution system. They're just a do-over for when the resolution system produces results you don't like. And while you can't make it so that the system never does that, I think we can certainly try to aim for RPG systems which crap out less than three times per session per PC!

On the other hand, I do think that the "add extra to a roll" style of Drama Points can be considered part of the resolution system, in particular if the choice to use them is made before the dice are rolled.

That's why I asked the question.

Quote from: Marleycat;651354It's ok everybody makes mistakes. As for the subject at hand? Fate Points or whatever are fine because they give a bit of control to the player and/or encourage some chance taking on top of allowing the GM to set the tone of the game from gritty to over the top.

Based on my username, it should be clear I have some sympathy for Karma points.

I don't even play or like MSH anymore, but its reasons for including karma had nothing to do patching a system and everything to do with emulating source material.

A weak system? No.

A system designed to facilitate creating cooperative fiction over roleplaying? Yes.

These are merely tools to construct a somewhat different beast than a roleplaying game. Depending on the stated goals of such a game and what its attempting to emulate, these features can strengthen such a game considerably.

Quote from: Ronin;651200Isn't that very meta gamey? Isn't that passing narrative control to the player? Isn't that very arbitrary?

No.

Quote from: Ronin;651200Can you give an example of a game that gets it right?

The two I always use as examples of getting things right. The one people should know is HERO System.

In reply to the OP.

No, I do not think it is a sign of a weak system.

I am more concerened with how such things are implemeted.

They can be great or terrible.

No, this isn't necessarily a sign of a "weak system". It all depends on the context of the game and system.