Quote from: Sacrosanct;651246I would add to this races, unless races are classes.

Well I have played a lot of human only D&D and we didn't miss race and it still played just liek D&D.

Also you can get rid of race and make it just background fluff. "I am an elf" doesn't have to mean anything more than "I am a member of the order of Zanthas" or "I am Belgian".
The game still plays like D&D.

Quote from: David Johansen;651251Huh, so the original 2d6 combat matrix version of OD&D isn't D&D and all of TSR D&D isn't D&D unless it's been republished by Hasbro?  Learn something new every day.

One could argue that the additions and alterations in something like fourth edition make them part of the whole by name association.

But in terms of a recognizable Dungeons & Dragons rule set I'd go with the following.

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma with associated bonuses and roles on a 3-18 scale.  Sorry -5 to +5 ain't D&D.

Races and Character Classes even if the Races are Character Classes.  That is to say that preset template/archetype combinations are fundamental to character creation.

Levels and Hit Dice yes I believe this structure is very fundamental.  It's the benchmark of a fifth level fighter being worth five first level fighters if you will.  It's the abstraction that sets the game apart from every other rpg I've ever read.  I believe jettisoning it and calling something D&D is sheer madness.

Armor Class makes you harder to hit Strength adds to Melee attacks and Dexterity adds to Missile Attacks and Armor Class.  It's dumb but it's definitely D&D.  It only works in the context of the Hit Dice mechanism so any game that keeps it and scraps the Hit Dice is really awful.

Vancian Spell casting again a characterful part of the game that's been core since its inception.

The monster roster.  Aboleths, Beholders, Carrion Crawlers... I think that the sheer diversity of horrors is one of D&D's fundamental characteristics.

Not that I haven't joked about publishing Rolemaster under the name Advanced Dungeons & Dragons a few times.  But really, it's a question of getting what you expect in the box.  I've often thought that the industry would be better off if it could move past D&D to a more mature design but attempting to do that under the name Dungeons & Dragons would only alienate the fans.  I walked away from writing for Rolemaster for a similar reason incidentally, if I had my way it wouldn't be Rolemaster anymore.

I would submit that through early OD&D evolution it wasn't D&D until a certain point and d20 combat is one of the break points. I am not familiar enough with the timeline of evolution to give the others but yes not all early OD&D is D&D.

Liek I said you don't need races to play like D&D and you can certainly remove racial bonuses and just make them background.
I have played D&D with spell points and it still feels like D&D. I think the fact that there are 'spells' called stuff like Fireball, Sleep or Nystuls magtic aura is more critical than whenter you can cast 3 1st, 2nd and 1 3rd or you have 15 SPs and 1st level spells cost 1, 2nds cost 3 and 3rds cost 5.

AC makes you harder to hit, was almost on my list. I think you could however use armour as absorb damage and THACO (or equiv) to make you harder to hit and it woudl still be D&D  - though I think this is perhaps an innovation I would need to fully playtest to know for sure

Now, one other point is the question of who can remove what from D&D and have it remain D&D.  I think that's more complex.  If your group decides to implement house rules it seems to me there's a point when it stops being D&D.  There's a point where a supplement can go to and then another where the core game can go to.  This is because the customers will only bend so far.  If I go out and buy the rights to D&D and publish In The Shadow of Dragons under that name I think I can safely say I won't get very many sales.

The Hit Dice / Level mechanism sets a very specific relationship between the player characters and the world and the nature of the physics of the world.  When you 'broaden the sweet spot' you lose that relationship.  With out it, when you use Armor as difficulty and have no damage absorbtion combat becomes first level BD&D deadly all the time at all levels.  Actually it gets deadlier as attack bonuses accumulate and armor becomes less and less effective.

I'd have included the d20 attack and saving throws and the polyhedral damage dice but that would exclude the brown box and that just seems silly.  As I stated before I'm not sure you can excluded 4e on account of it clearly saying Dungeons & Dragons on the cover.  On the other hand, just like me publishing my homebrew under that name, the results were at mixed at best.  Maybe that tells us something about where the line lies.  I don't know.

Quote from: Phillip;651190NOT in the boxed set of 3 booklets! No Door for you, since you can't be arsed to pay attention to the real deal.

Two-hole pwnage for the old Delver, three if Gygax (and only EGG!) prepped the root canal.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;651136Hm.  I never know how these things go.  For me D&D is, not in this order, and all are equally important:

• 9 alignments
• vancian spellcasting
• 6 stats, 3-18 - higher (or lower) with exceptional conditions
• Damage bonuses for great strength, defensive bonuses for great dexterity, spell bonuses for great intelligence or wisdom, hit point bonuses for high constitution, follower/henchman/hireling bonuses for high charisma.
• Dwarves, elves, humans, halflings, gnomes, half-orcs, half-elves
• fighters, rangers, paladins, magic-users, illusionists, clerics, druids, thieves, assassins, bards, monks
• Exploring dungeons and on occasion encountering dragons
• unfettered ribaldry when in town
• story isn't a mechanic, it's a result of playing
• named spells - it's not "magic aura" it's Nystul's magic aura, etc.
  
• Cosmic Planar wheel
• XP for treasure
• +n magic items
  
• Healing comes by resting, or by cleric, or by potion or other magic item
• Hit points
• Separate XP for each class
• GP = XP
• Magic items = XP
• Becoming a landholder at higher levels
• The chance to face off with Gods at higher levels
• Some limits on what humans can do, some limits on what demi-humans can do
• Gonzo monsters like Beholders, Blink Dogs, Mind Flayers, Owlbears and on and on
• Dungeons full of plunder
• Not giving a fig about some evil overlord's sob story - just putting him to the sword in the name of justice!

KKA called and said plz bring your AD&D faggotry back home.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651133WOTC

Stole the acronym right out of my mouth....

Quote from: FASERIP;651310KKA called and said plz bring your AD&D faggotry back home.

...and where the fuck did you crawl out of again, nobody?

Quote from: Phillip;651190NOT in the boxed set of 3 booklets! No Door for you, since you can't be arsed to pay attention to the real deal.

Yeaaaaaah and the question wasn't about OD&D, so that's an "F" for you I'm afraid.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651133WOTC

LOL Well played, Sir. Well played.

Its not D&D unless it has:

1) class and level system
2) pseudo-medieval fantasy implied background
3) alignment and other Gygaxisms
4) Vancian magic
5) Hit Points
6) Tolkien-lite fantasy races
7) AC


everything else is negotiable.

OD&D 1974 to AD&D 1st ed with selected bits of Unearthed Arcana basically IS D&D for me.

All the others, as well as late AD&D 1st ed (some of Unearthed Arcana, Oriental Adventures, Survival Guides, Dragonlance, etc etc), are just hacks and variants of this game, some of them good, some of them bad, with occasional moments of brilliance, but all of them derivations of the original lightning in a bottle which ran roughly from 1974 to 1980 something, from my standpoint.

Quote from: Rincewind1;651257Bards.

No soup for you.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;651365...and where the fuck did you crawl out of again, nobody?

I dripped out of your pink sock.

Quote from: Bobloblah;651117OH NOES! I'M PLAYING THE WRONG GAME!
...
..
.
Please tell me you're not serious?

I'm not serious.

You can take the AD&D and remove the "A" and it becomes "D&D" then, there, done..tahdah!