Quote from: Benoist;651074"A dungeon crawl roleplaying game and love letter to Basic D&D."

The "love letter" thing again? :rolleyes:

I'll quote/paraphrase from the last one:

QuoteAhahahha, nerds and their love letters to fucking games.

QuoteIt's like proving to your wife you love her...by shagging another broad.

Quote from: The Traveller;651157Thanking you sir, thanking you. So basically a monomaniacal rules lawyer, albeit one who was antagonised into parading his dickishness across the internet. Not someone I'd have round for tea and cake or would have any interest in gaming with, a purveyor of off-colour gaming systems who nailed his flag to the wrong mast. Honestly he seems like an icon of the dead end that is shared narrative gaming reduced (or advanced) to aping the efforts of his betters.

I read those links. He could open a hardware store. I guess we can observe his works in RPGs as a sort of a test subject, to see how far you can go when waving your penis with one hand and keeping a cigarette in the other.

Also, since we've established I believe that this is a clear - cut Storygame, why it isn't in Other Games yet?

Quote from: Rincewind1;651255Also, since we've established I believe that this is a clear - cut Storygame, why it isn't in Other Games yet?

Probably because it's a meaningless distinction that most people don't really care about to the point that Other Games is mostly used to discuss video games.

Quote from: TomatoMalone;651276Probably because it's a meaningless distinction that most people don't really care about to the point that Other Games is mostly used to discuss video games.

Actually, we use it mostly to discuss storygames.

Quote from: gleichman;651167So he was another victim of therpgsite's One True Wayism and resulting dogpile. Nice to know that I'm not the only one.

But no one clambers up on the cross so quickly or efficiently, so you still have that going for you.

In regards to Torchbearer, I point to the quote by Cranewings in my sig.

Quote from: silva;651249Just him? You have a LOT of people around here to use as example.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I deduce this not only from your constant presence on this and other internet RPG boards, but from your description of "coming all over yourself" in relation to a shared narrative game about trains. You need to get yourself a girlfriend, buddy, or a boyfriend or whatever, before you make medical history due to a terminal case of calluses.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;651250'So, remember all that resource management stuff I said I hated? Now I love it!'

Comedy gold.

They aren't even being ironical there.

Quote from: The Traveller;651303They aren't even being ironical there.

They rarely are...

Quote from: Rincewind1;651255Also, since we've established I believe that this is a clear - cut Storygame, why it isn't in Other Games yet?

What makes Torchbearer a clear-cut story game, in your opinion?

Quote from: The Traveller;651303Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I deduce this not only from your constant presence on this and other internet RPG boards, but from your description of "coming all over yourself" in relation to a shared narrative game about trains. You need to get yourself a girlfriend, buddy, or a boyfriend or whatever, before you make medical history due to a terminal case of calluses.

3/10. Try harder.

Specially coming from the guy who 90% of the posts are gratuitous ad hominem or fanatical non-sensical bullshit.

Quote from: Rincewind1;651255.

Also, since we've established I believe that this is a clear - cut Storygame, why it isn't in Other Games yet?

I think people are increasingly lowering the bar for what gets labeled story game. It is starting to become the bin any game people dont like gets tossed into. I am not really seeing it in this case. This game is certainly as a modern vibe but that doesn't make it a story game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;651384I think people are increasingly lowering the bar for what gets labeled story game. It is starting to become the bin any game people dont like gets tossed into. I am not really seeing it in this case. This game is certainly as a modern vibe but that doesn't make it a story game.

I agree. This is certainly an uber-focused "coherent" Forge game, no question about it, but that doesn't automatically make it a story game. For it to be an actual story game, you'd have to show us how that game's actual purpose is not to emulate a world with the participants immersing therein, but rather to collaborate as a co-author to the creation of a story, narrative, or piece of fiction, along with rules tools that are supposed to help achieve this purpose.

So, if this game involves some type of narrative tools and focus, show it to us. Otherwise, the thread stays here.

Quote from: silva;6513713/10. Try harder.

Specially coming from the guy who 90% of the posts are gratuitous ad hominem or fanatical non-sensical bullshit.

Struck a nerve, eh? Have a look through the threads I've started and point out to me the gratuitous ad hominem ones or "fanatical non-sensical [sic] bullshit" ones. Go on, there are quite a few. No? Looks like you're slinging the mud now buddy.

Quote from: Benoist;651370What makes Torchbearer a clear-cut story game, in your opinion?

1) Heavily focused and dissociated, board - game style resource mechanics.
2) Player Characters do not serve as player characters, but as characters around which the story of entering dangerous dungeon is created, rather than an experience of a dangerous dungeon.
3) As it was noted, the dungeon is created on the fly to facilitate the story of a dangerous dungeon, rather than a consistent part of the world.
4) Absurd time tracking, which only makes sense in context of abstraction for literature & drama, rather than "realism" or "verisimilitude"
5) Reward loop, if based upon Mouse Guard, is very storygamy, because it entirely depends on how dramatic your decisions were, rather than how competent your actions were.

There's probably more, but I don't care enough to ponder about them.

Yes, I know it's kind of the grey area. But for me, this is at least one step past the hazy line between heavily narrative RPG and just a storygame. Apocalypse World is more of an RPG than this, and it gets moved constantly.

Quote from: Rincewind1;6514221) Heavily focused and dissociated, board - game style resource mechanics.

Dissociated mechanics don't make a story game. 4e D&D is not a story game. It's a game that borrows from eurogames and video games and a whole bunch of influences, people might not like it, but it's a tabletop RPG.

Quote from: Rincewind1;6514222) Player Characters do not serve as player characters, but as characters around which the story of entering dangerous dungeon is created, rather than an experience of a dangerous dungeon.

OK That's much closer to the mark. Citation needed. Where in the game or the way it's been talked about by Luke Crane, or players who have experienced the game, does it say that?

Quote from: Rincewind1;6514223) As it was noted, the dungeon is created on the fly to facilitate the story of a dangerous dungeon, rather than a consistent part of the world.

That's another good point, if you can back it up. Citation needed.

Quote from: Rincewind1;6514224) Absurd time tracking, which only makes sense in context of abstraction for literature & drama, rather than "realism" or "verisimilitude"

Hm. I see the logic here, but that's thin. See 1). It's not because a mechanic is dissociated that it necessarily results in a storygame. 4e has dissociated mechanics. People certainly can explain them using narrative logic, but not necessarily. Same thing here.

Quote from: Rincewind1;6514225) Reward loop, if based upon Mouse Guard, is very storygamy, because it entirely depends on how dramatic your decisions were, rather than how competent your actions were.

Citation needed.

Quote from: Rincewind1;651422Yes, I know it's kind of the grey area. But for me, this is at least one step past the hazy line between heavily narrative RPG and just a storygame.

It *is* a spectrum, and there *are* grey areas, yes. Provide me with primary references of what you are talking with points 2, 3 and 5, and we'll see.

Quote from: silva;6513713/10. Try harder.

Specially coming from the guy who 90% of the posts are gratuitous ad hominem or fanatical non-sensical bullshit.

Damn, it looks like you don't like your schilling thread blown up.  It makes you whine like Mistwell.

It's all in fuseboy's and original sales pitch. If you don't want to move it, don't. I'll just cite one, since I don't feel like being called full of shit.

3)

Quote from: fuseboy;650205The GM's section has a checklist/process for making a dungeon that has some interesting ideas in it, about how the dungeon came to be a dungeon, what changes it's endured over the ages, as well as guidance on the appropriate amount of treasure, etc.

You can draw a map if you like - I had sketchy maps of mine, but as the game isn't about players drawing a map of the GM's descriptions, the GM could potentially get by without a map for a linear dungeon.

Old habits die hard, so I kept a few aspects of the dungeon vague until play, but it's entirely fine to be quite concrete ahead of time.  You could play the game using most of the dungeons submitted to the one-page dungeon contest, for example.

That's where you read between the lines. The dungeon doesn't matter, because what matters, is that a story of a chilling dungeon comes out.

And really, I don't feel like writing for Wikipedia today.

And if a stand's being made on Torchlight, AW threads should be brought back to RPG discussion. Because they are an RPG, even if a primitive one.