I remember a few weeks ago that someone mentioned in a thread they thought things that players received like action points in D&D and Drama die in Seventh sea that help the players out was a sign of a weak system design. That the system should be better balanced an not need these things/crutches.

It sort of bothered me since I love Drama/karma/luck dice/point mechanics that help characters do extraordinary acts and be heroic or mitigate horrible luck which I have seen all to often.

what be your opinion?

No, they are not. They just give players a slight edge over run-of-the-mill NPCs, which is perfectly fine (unless you want a dangerous, gritty game with high player death).

No they can be great for certain games. I think the problem is when they are just there because lots of other games use those sorts of things. If it makes sense and helps achieve the kind of feel the game is shooting for they can add a lot.

Im with Brendan on this one. They can be a good resource depending on your game premise. But adding it only because other games have it, dont make sense for me. I dont see it working in games with a more gritty and deadly premise, for example (like Runequest), while its cool for more cinematic or narrative goals.

Fate or luck points can work well if not handed out like candy. The trick with them is to be sparing, so they are only used in extremis.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;651153I remember a few weeks ago that someone mentioned in a thread they thought things that players received like action points in D&D and Drama die in Seventh sea that help the players out was a sign of a weak system design. That the system should be better balanced an not need these things/crutches.

That was likely me.

Yes, they generally suck. If used to override the game's resolution system, they are nothing more than an indication that the game's resolution system produces undesired results- the resolution system itself should be fixed.

If used to pass narrative control to the player, they force meta-game concerns directly into the middle of play and should be avoided for that reason alone (to say nothing of the fact that giving player narrative control is a very bad idea).

The closest I've seen to an acceptable use was TORG, where they at least represented a in-game ability of the character. But even here, there would have been better options and they failed to achieve their purpose in our short lived campaign.

Not at all. The dice don't understand that under certain circumstances a character might put more effort, more concentration or feel more motivated than in other circumstances. Without hero points, the odds of successfully kicking down a door in a burning building are the same whether you are trying to save the life of you daughter or her pet turtle.

Of course this a more romantic view of things. One could argue is just as solid regardless of who is behind it. In in the end it really comes down to taste.

Quote from: Soylent Green;651172Without hero points, the odds of successfully kicking down a door in a burning building are the same whether you are trying to save the life of you daughter or her pet turtle.

You don't need hero points for that. Just a good resolution system.

If you buy into the fact that more often than not they are a patch for the system, i see no reason why it should interfere with your enjoyment of the game - presuming of course, that's the kind of thing you like.

An example of this kind of mechanic that is actually quite intuitive but basically serves as an extra roll is d&d next's Advantage/Disadvantage system. If you're extra skilled at something or have a tactical advantage, you roll 2 dice and take the best result. Has the same effect as an action point or whatever, but at least has some intuitive feel to it.

No, the system could be 'strong' or 'weak' regardless.

Sometimes it's an elegant solution to ensuring a spread of outcomes without the GM 'fudging' that is the usual alternative when real assurance is desired. It's fundamentally the same as having a stock of excess "hit points" to spend rather than getting killed in a single blow.

Simply pushing things to probabilistic outliers, or making them absolutely certain always (not a frangible resource), are different results!

What's going on here is that some people privilege their preferred style of game as "good design" rather than as "my preferred style of game." It's as if all motorcycles could be categorized as bad design because they make poor kayaks! It can be damned good design if what you want happens to be a motorcycle.

Quote from: Soylent Green;651172Not at all. The dice don't understand that under certain circumstances a character might put more effort, more concentration or feel more motivated than in other circumstances. Without hero points, the odds of successfully kicking down a door in a burning building are the same whether you are trying to save the life of you daughter or her pet turtle.

I think a better solution for this is using emotional atributes like Passions, Instincts, Virtues, etc. to reflect the bonus the character gets for situations that really matter to them.

Games like Riddle of Steel, Pendragon and Unknown Armies use that for good effect, I think.

Quote from: Phillip;651179What's going on here is that some people privilege their preferred style of game as "good design" rather than as "my preferred style of game."

The language of moral relativism finds it way into everything, and leaving standards for nothing.

I'm against giving narrative control to players since -apart from the immersion issue - they have a vested interest in a particular PC. Give a monkey a wish and the world would be filled with bananas. Its more interesting to have events go in unexpected directions.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that systems using luck points are broken in general, although, I can think of specific games that over-use the mechanic excessively - Savage Worlds since I don't think the game would work without them (bennies are needed for soaking). Perhaps DC Heroes.

Edit: You could maybe put down WEG Star Wars/D6 System as a bit broken too, since task difficulties can be so high you need to spend character points to pass them with a low stat.

Quote from: silva;651165I dont see it working in games with a more gritty and deadly premise, for example (like Runequest) . . .

But simply call 'em Power Points and there's no problem?

I've heard of clothes making the man, but my oh my what's in a word for some people!

A lot depends on the genre you are trying to emulate. WEG's d6 Star Wars benefits from the use of the Wild Die to emulate the feel of the Star Wars genre. Character Points and Force Points are self regulating in the context of the game.

However, the use of mook rules in D&D 4E crippled the game play by making a percentage of all the monsters you fight be balloons that pop on the first hit. Emulation fail for D&D, emulation win for console games.