Quote from: Grymbok;651078"includes mind flayers in its monster list"

Heck, even that's not sufficient. B/X has no mind flayers.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651133WOTC

Nice

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651133WOTC

Well dang; I didn't even see this.  Close the thread, EW has won.

The trademark. D&D is whatever the trademark holder says is D&D.

I agree that most people's lists are looking like Palladium Fantasy or dozens of "heartbreakers" published in the 80s and beyond. Which is fine, because "what is real D&D" is probably much more personal than mechanical.

It is my opinion that "real D&D" is more about what is felt by player than what rules are on the page.

For me, if somebody asked for me to give them "my D&D", I would probably hand them Mazes & Minotaurs because for me, that game encompasses the feel of fresh, new excitement that I felt decades ago. As much as I enjoy S&W: White Box, it does not "sing to me" the way that Mazes & Minotaurs does for me today.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;651133WOTC

If you remove WOTC, you gotta remove TSR too. I know the OSR likes to forget, but TSR were raging tard ass monkeys who took an A+ IP and ran it into the ground.  

Not like WotC are much brighter, but TSR were idiots.

In most of the circles in which I've played, change to not "just D&D" anymore (which is easier to point to than "not D&D at all") comes not from subtraction but from addition.

For example, the Arduin Grimoire booklets were very clearly D&D supplements, but at some point it seemed meet to speak of "playing Arduin" (and beyond that of "playing Cynosure," or whatever a DM's campaign was called). Ditto Warlock, the Palladium RPG, C&S, and so on.

Many works of the 1970s that from first commercial publication were identified as "not D&D" derived from games that started as D&D campaigns.

Some folks in Phoenix, used to calling their game D&D, realized that the trademark meant a new name was called for when they responded to demands to publish their rules. Caverns & Catoblepas lost out in favor of Tunnels & Trolls.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;651136For me D&D is, not in this order, and all are equally important:

• 9 alignments . . .


• Damage bonuses for great strength, defensive bonuses for great dexterity, spell bonuses for great intelligence or wisdom . . .


• Dwarves, elves, humans, halflings, gnomes, half-orcs, half-elves . . .


• fighters, rangers, paladins, magic-users, illusionists, clerics, druids, thieves, assassins, bards, monks . . .


• named spells - it's not "magic aura" it's Nystul's magic aura, etc.. . .
  
  
• Cosmic Planar wheel . . .

In other words, the original D&D set is NOT D&D?

Would it still be D&D if we could remove the pigeonhole fetishists who insist on having clear-cut definitions of D&D and non-D&D?

Quote from: Phillip;651158In other words, the original D&D set is NOT D&D?

Nice try; you can have some Rice-a-roni as a parting gift. All of the things I mention were listed as optional in The Strategic Review and Supplements I-III.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;651178Nice try; you can have some Rice-a-roni as a parting gift. All of the things I mention were listed as optional in The Strategic Review and Supplements I-III.

NOT in the boxed set of 3 booklets! No Door for you, since you can't be arsed to pay attention to the real deal.

My must have list is

i) Classes
ii) Core 6 stats on a 3-18 base range (A fantasy game doesn't need this but D&D does to be D&D)
iii) Levels
iv) HP
v) D20 core mechanic
vi) Spell casting - can be points, can be slots no matter but can't be 'powers'


Everything else is pretty much up for grabs and any other game that uses these 6 things is basically a clone or a heartbreaker.

Quote from: jibbajibba;651243My must have list is

i) Classes
ii) Core 6 stats on a 3-18 base range (A fantasy game doesn't need this but D&D does to be D&D)
iii) Levels
iv) HP
v) D20 core mechanic
vi) Spell casting - can be points, can be slots no matter but can't be 'powers'


Everything else is pretty much up for grabs and any other game that uses these 6 things is basically a clone or a heartbreaker.

I would add to this races, unless races are classes.

Huh, so the original 2d6 combat matrix version of OD&D isn't D&D and all of TSR D&D isn't D&D unless it's been republished by Hasbro?  Learn something new every day.

One could argue that the additions and alterations in something like fourth edition make them part of the whole by name association.

But in terms of a recognizable Dungeons & Dragons rule set I'd go with the following.

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma with associated bonuses and roles on a 3-18 scale.  Sorry -5 to +5 ain't D&D.

Races and Character Classes even if the Races are Character Classes.  That is to say that preset template/archetype combinations are fundamental to character creation.

Levels and Hit Dice yes I believe this structure is very fundamental.  It's the benchmark of a fifth level fighter being worth five first level fighters if you will.  It's the abstraction that sets the game apart from every other rpg I've ever read.  I believe jettisoning it and calling something D&D is sheer madness.

Armor Class makes you harder to hit Strength adds to Melee attacks and Dexterity adds to Missile Attacks and Armor Class.  It's dumb but it's definitely D&D.  It only works in the context of the Hit Dice mechanism so any game that keeps it and scraps the Hit Dice is really awful.

Vancian Spell casting again a characterful part of the game that's been core since its inception.

The monster roster.  Aboleths, Beholders, Carrion Crawlers... I think that the sheer diversity of horrors is one of D&D's fundamental characteristics.

Not that I haven't joked about publishing Rolemaster under the name Advanced Dungeons & Dragons a few times.  But really, it's a question of getting what you expect in the box.  I've often thought that the industry would be better off if it could move past D&D to a more mature design but attempting to do that under the name Dungeons & Dragons would only alienate the fans.  I walked away from writing for Rolemaster for a similar reason incidentally, if I had my way it wouldn't be Rolemaster anymore.

Quote from: David Johansen;651251Armor Class makes you harder to hit Strength adds to Melee attacks and Dexterity adds to Missile Attacks and Armor Class.  It's dumb but it's definitely D&D.  It only works in the context of the Hit Dice mechanism so any game that keeps it and scraps the Hit Dice is really awful.

Your "it only works" claim looks dumb, but those are definitely D&D Supplement I.

Bards.