Quote from: Rincewind1;650874I'm not a believer of Gygax, so don't put that in my mouth neither. He said a lot of crazy things, and I have little respect for a lot of his views on RPGs.  If you can prove otherwise to those points, quote where I said that I objectively did any of those things you accuse me of.

I gave you a hypothetical example (the Gygax one), which any high-school educated kid would comprehend was a hypothetical for example purposes only and not an actual example of real facts, and you actually think I was accusing you of being that example?

Shit dude, apparently it's not that you didn't follow the prior conversation, it's that your really don't understand.  Maybe you're tired? Drunk? So pressed for time you are just skimming? I don't know, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just a blathering idiot (I've seen you not be an idiot before), but you have some good excuse for your inability to engage in a conversation today.

You let me know when you're up to talking again, and I am fine continuing this conversation.

Quote from: Mistwell;650876I gave you a hypothetical example (the Gygax one), which any high-school educated kid would comprehend was a hypothetical for example purposes only and not an actual example of real facts, and you actually think I was accusing you of being that example?

Shit dude, apparently it's not that you didn't follow the prior conversation, it's that your really don't understand.  Maybe you're tired? Drunk? So pressed for time you are just skimming? I don't know, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just a blathering idiot (I've seen you not be an idiot before), but you have some good excuse for your inability to engage in a conversation today.

You let me know when you're up to talking again, and I am fine continuing this conversation.

.

I ask you to quote me on tje other 3 things you actually accuse me of saying, and your answer is "You're drunk and stupid"?

Quote me. Go on, make my day.

Especially quote me where I

Quoteexplaining how those games are objectively worse. Who the fuck do you think your kidding?

Quote from: Mistwell;650870I have a good group of players, they just want to play D&D or variations on D&D.  At GenCon I played some Mutants and Masterminds.  I own some d20 books.  I own a couple of non-d20 books (like Mouse Guard, and some really old stuff like Star Frontiers and Marvel Superheros and Maybe Traveller, if I can find it some day in my stuff), but really, I cannot even get people to play a non-D&D game in my group, much less a non-d20 game.  We did play Old School Hack, once, and I loved that.  But, you work with what you have.  I have a good group of players, who only want to play D&D.  I don't think our group is that unusual.

Alright, fair enough. What works for you and all that, I went a bit too far with that one. But I think it's worth experimenting with games.

Quote from: Brad;650466Not a fan of Burning Wheel at all; I could never figure out what I was supposed to do with it. I bought Mouse Guard because the book looks great and the art is cool, but otherwise seems kind of boring. From the description given in the article/post and in this thread, it doesn't really seem like an RPG, but more of an exercise in resource management.

The notion of "turns" was brought up several times in a derogatory manner (i.e. turns do not necessarily denote any specific passage of time), but it seems exactly like how boardgames treat turns to me. Nothing wrong with that at all, but again, that's really not an RPG.

Luke Crane's career seems to be driven by the question Why can't we make RPGs pose the same choices as euro games?

It seems pretty clear to everyone who actually plays RPGs that the answer is twofold:

A) Euro games engage the analytical part of the brain and not the imaginative. People play those two different kinds of games for entirely different reasons, in much the same way that people swim and play darts for entirely different reasons. You don't swim laps to unwind with your buddies over a few beer, and you don't play darts as part of a cardiovascular health regimen. Unless you're a fucking halfwit.

B) Euro games are far better at posing those analytical resource management choices because they distil the game down to only those choices. Any game that adds 200 pages of chrome and setting detail and sub-systems onto a euro game is just a really shitty euro game.

Mind, I haven't read Burning Wheel in its entirely. I did spend about 10 minutes flipping through the Gold Edition at my FLGS. When I got to the part where you write down dialogue choices and engage in some sort of sub-system to determine the outcome of conversations, I knew that the whole system is just an exercise in gaming theorywank and slammed the book shut. The conversation duel is fine in the Dying Earth RPG, as it's the main system of a rather humorous, light game. But in a game with massively complex character generation and combat, it's just overkill from a designer who needs a discrete system for every aspect of his game world.

Crane is one of those douchebags who has cultivated the notion that DMs can't be trusted, and need their actions and choices circumscribed in the same way players' are. The fair adjudicator and interpreter doesn't exist is his RPG universe. That's probably the most toxic concept to emerge from the Forge.

Quote from: Haffrung;650906Luke Crane's career seems to be driven by the question Why can't we make RPGs pose the same choices as euro games?

That's succinct, and further reflection leads me to believe it's accurate. After I posted in this thread, I re-read Burning Wheel and can safely say it's not an rpg; at least not an rpg in the way I understand one to be. While that doesn't make it a bad game, it certainly doesn't make it a better game, either.

Quote from: Spinachcat;650857The Forbes thing looks good. Can't deny its good PR for Luke.

Superficially, yes, it does look good. That is why Mistwell is sucking up by White Knighting for Torchbearer.

Quote from: jeff37923;650938Superficially, yes, it does look good.

Just about anyone can get a Forbes blog, sign up here:

http://blogs.forbes.com/help/how-do-i-become-a-contributor/

Quote from: The Traveller;650939Just about anyone can get a Forbes blog, sign up here:

http://blogs.forbes.com/help/how-do-i-become-a-contributor/

Hence the "superficially" qualifier.

Perhaps there's a difference between anyone can apply and anyone can get a blog at Forbes?

Seems to me that there's a big hole in their gaming coverage that a few here could fill. Sign up!

Quote from: Haffrung;650906Luke Crane's career seems to be driven by the question Why can't we make RPGs pose the same choices as euro games?

Thus my "mechanics in search of a theme" comment.  I think you've nailed it in this post, really.

Quote from: Haffrung;650906Luke Crane's career seems to be driven by the question Why can't we make RPGs pose the same choices as euro games?

It seems pretty clear to everyone who actually plays RPGs that the answer is twofold:

A) Euro games engage the analytical part of the brain and not the imaginative. People play those two different kinds of games for entirely different reasons, in much the same way that people swim and play darts for entirely different reasons. You don't swim laps to unwind with your buddies over a few beer, and you don't play darts as part of a cardiovascular health regimen. Unless you're a fucking halfwit.

B) Euro games are far better at posing those analytical resource management choices because they distil the game down to only those choices. Any game that adds 200 pages of chrome and setting detail and sub-systems onto a euro game is just a really shitty euro game.

Mind, I haven't read Burning Wheel in its entirely. I did spend about 10 minutes flipping through the Gold Edition at my FLGS. When I got to the part where you write down dialogue choices and engage in some sort of sub-system to determine the outcome of conversations, I knew that the whole system is just an exercise in gaming theorywank and slammed the book shut. The conversation duel is fine in the Dying Earth RPG, as it's the main system of a rather humorous, light game. But in a game with massively complex character generation and combat, it's just overkill from a designer who needs a discrete system for every aspect of his game world.

Crane is one of those douchebags who has cultivated the notion that DMs can't be trusted, and need their actions and choices circumscribed in the same way players' are. The fair adjudicator and interpreter doesn't exist is his RPG universe. That's probably the most toxic concept to emerge from the Forge.

That indeed is an awesome post, Haffrung.

Quote from: Eisenmann;650846At the recursiveness that is the purple vibe that's reactionary to the purple vibe.

I have long suspected that this site is actually rpg.net's implementation of the Sartre-ban.

Some unconnected thoughts, after reading some of the linked materials.

• Justin Alexander's essay on goals in dungeoneering very much addressed one of the disconnects. The default mode for most people, with regards to dungeoneering, was "clear the dungeon". (This is the mode most video games also take.) But that's not the only mode, isn't the mode in Gygaxian dungeoncrawling (from what I gather), and is fucking boring. Gygaxian dungeoncrawling is not about "clearing the dungeon", despite it being the most common mode.
  

• There's a lot of posts on how to build a good dungeon, and many, many posts from people aghast that anyone could possibly be ignorant of the Gygaxian mode, but not a lot of posts about "here's why we find dungeons fun".

• Something I might find useful: "So you want to run a dungeon." This would be an article that describes the Gygaxian mode, what to expect from playing in a dungeon, and why people find it enjoyable.

• Some questions that might be illuminative is: What would you expect from a DM who said "I'm running a Gygaxian dungeon." What would the typical session be like? What should the GM do to fulfill your expectations? What would be automatic fails — other than mechanics. (Assume stock 1e AD&D, only the PHB, DMG, MM.)

I'll continue reading.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;582785You plotted expeditions, brought lots of people with you, and retreated or laid low when things got too hot. It wasn't so much an "invasion" as it was a "raiding party". Get in, grab the goods, get out.

Cool. Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Give me some more of this.

What did you do, why did you do it, and what about it thrilled you?

Assume I know nothing about the Gygaxian mode, start with the most elemental, simple pieces and explain it to me. That's the kind of article I'm looking for.

Quote from: The Butcher;582816Most "What's the deal with dungeons???" threads consist of someone asking what's so fun about dungeoneering, and then shooting down all arguments presented.

And that's NOT what I want to do. This isn't a "convince me you're really having fun" question, it's an actual "I've never played that way, what's it like?" query.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;651055What would you expect from a DM who said "I'm running a Gygaxian dungeon."

That the referee is a pretentious douchebag.

The kickstarter is now up. And funded. that didn't take a whole lotta time.