I think it would be best served to have a 'bored' condition.

What, i have to count my tea-leaves again? *flounce*

Quote from: silva;650415Well, if thats your take on the matter, so be it. I dont share it, but respect it nonetheless.

Stop it, will you?

This whole thread was started in the hope that you would be able to rub theRPGSite's nose in Luke Crane getting a game talked about in a Forbes blog. Don't get all pissy when you see it backfiring in your face.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;650357Really?

You are exactly the sort of pretentious douchebag that I'm laughing at right now.

Ha!

I think i might have to nominate this for post of the year. :rotfl:

Quote from: jeff37923;650417Don't get all pissy when you see it backfiring in your face.

He keeps getting his ass handed to him and for some reason comes back for more. I think it's some sort of weird fetish.

Quote from: jeff37923;650417Stop it, will you?

This whole thread was started in the hope that you would be able to rub theRPGSite's nose in Luke Crane getting a game talked about in a Forbes blog. Don't get all pissy when you see it backfiring in your face.

Well, Im not on a rpg crusade as some guys around here. I will continue discussing with anyone genuinely interesting in discussing the game (Imperator, Daddy, etc), but I wont enter any fights.

Sorry if the frustrates you.

Quote from: K Peterson;650359That is strange. You would think that a game so focused on resource management would nail down, accurately, the burning time of torches and the daily food requirements for an average adventurer. At least make it less hand-wavey vague and illogical. I would think that fatigue from physical exertion would have a far greater impact (more conditional penalties) while spelunking than a little rumble in the tummy.

and that's why this is a narrative game.  There is resource management, but the resources aren't tied to anything concrete, like the resources they are supposed to simulate.  That's because there is no structured time.  Everything is based on a "turn", well how long is a turn?  It depends.

Previously, how any other game has handled the situation is exactly like how someone in the real world would.  Look at the amount of food left, look at the amount of light sources left, take in rate of use and know that you had two days to get out of the caves or you're dead.  That's pressure, drama, conflict, whatever you want to call it, the struggle for survival.

By making the turns relative, and resources dissociated from time and realistic rates of resource consumption, the game dissociates the struggle of the player from the struggle of the character.  Resource management becomes a metagame, instead of the natural byproduct of your character using resources.

You're not roleplaying the character, you're using narrative metagame to tell the story of a dungeoncrawler.  As Spinachcat said, this might be a fun boardgame.  As a Narrative Quasi-RPG, bleah.

I wonder why Pundit didnt enter here yet saying something like "thats it folks, party is over. Moving to other games".

Quote from: silva;650427I wonder why Pundit didnt enter here yet saying something like "thats it folks, party is over. Moving to other games".

Maybe because that's what you've been waiting for from the very start.

Quote from: silva;650427I wonder why Pundit didnt enter here yet saying something like "thats it folks, party is over. Moving to other games".

The Pundit's busy. Meanwhile it's fun taking apart the necksters* and their flailings towards relevancy.

*neckbeards who think they are hipsters, thoroughly pitiable

Quote from: The Traveller;650409I dipped a toe in these waters previously. Some good information in there.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I'll give it a read.

EDIT: Actually, I already read that thread, back when it was new, including the links to, e.g., Philotemy's site. But I do appreciate the response.

Quote from: Benoist;650410That's page 107 and 109

That wasn't written by you, so won't tell me why you love your play style.

Some information that might: how do you normally play? What do you look for in a session? How were you introduced to it, and what made you realize it was too compelling to quit?

Why do you love your playstyle? That's what I'd like to know.

I've said it three times in a row: I don't want page cites to a 30 year old manual. I want to know what you think.

Quote from: J Arcane;650411Hulks and Horrors contains a fair bit of text as well explaining not just how old-school sandbox gaming is fun, but why.

That's great, but not what I'm asking about. I'm looking for the Gygaxian dungeon-crawling. A primer on it, why its adherents like it, what they feel enhances or detracts from it, how other people can get started on it. What dungeons are particularly suited to it, classic or recent?

All the basic stuff you'd normally expect fans to write.

Quote from: J Arcane;650411There's also all those guys who wrote "old school primers," or the glowing blog and forum posts from recent converts like James M. or myself.

Great. That seems like it might be something like what I asked for. Links to your blog (not in your sig), his blog, anything else?

Quote from: J Arcane;650411Frankly I don't know what the hell you're screaming about

Wow. "Screaming"? Around here? That was almost a love letter to the OSR, by the usual standards.

Quote from: J Arcane;650411it seems irritatingly close to a shoe-drop moment where you then claim that this supposed absence of such material is some kind of proof of something or other.

I've already "dropped the shoe": I said that all I read on this board from OSR people is how shitty other games are. Even after I asked — politely, over a week ago — what they loved about Gygaxian dungeoncrawling ("fantasy fucking Vietnam"), all I read are people venting about other people's games, and how immoral the players thereof are.

And what did that prove, to me? "It seems a little clannish..." That's the shoe I dropped.

And you're offended? Blogger, please.

Quote from: J Arcane;650411it's not anyone else's responsibility to educate you on the matter.

"I'm intrigued by Gygaxian dungeoncrawling. Where can I learn more?"

"I don't have to tell you shit!"

You're right, you don't. You don't have to respond at all. But you did. And, instead of actually answering the sincere question I asked, you just bitched.

I'm not trying to argue against your hobby... I just wanted some basic information. And that's how you respond?

That's how you respond to someone's repeated and sincere requests for some basic information about the thing you love? That's how you respond to the curious, the uninitiated, those who actually want to hear some old war stories?

"Tell me why you love it. I might love it, too."

"I don't have to tell you shit!"

"Clannish" seems far too mild a description for that kind of response. Hostile, insular, xenophobic... all of those are in the ballpark.

But welcoming, eager, and helpful, it isn't.

I don't see the use in getting bent out of shape over some guy making a game like this. A bit unclear on what it is bringing to the table that is genuinely new. It just sounds like what he is adding is a simplified and abstract resource management method (which doesn't strike me as all that terrible or all that brilliant). The one big concern I have when I read the promotional material in Forbes is it sounds like the guy is a serious real-world caver and he built the game to simlate the real thing. My experience with games written by experts or enthusiasts of a subject like that is they sometimes over-engineer or solve problems people who just play the game don't have (don't know if he did that here but that would be my concern). If he loves spelunking and made a game real spelunkers can admire, i do think that is cool. There may be a lot of people curious what a dungeon crawling hame written by such a person would play like (and perhaps they hope to get a window into the hobby as well). For me it doesn't look on first glance like he offering something I needed (i've been fine with how resource management and exploration works in most games i've played, so I dont need much more in the way of rules there).

On the other hand if he has found a good solution to the perennial problem of encumberance rules, then I wouldn't mind taking a look at the system and see what ideas he came up with.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;650431That wasn't written by you, so won't tell me why you love your play style.

Some information that might: how do you normally play? What do you look for in a session? How were you introduced to it, and what made you realize it was too compelling to quit?

Why do you love your playstyle? That's what I'd like to know.

We've talked about this before and you know my answer about it.

Here: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=504466

This is just the beginning.

QuoteI'm not trying to argue against your hobby... I just wanted some basic information.

People who want honest answers don't tend to go on the attack.

My work is up for those who want to read it.

The fact that you don't seem to understand that talk about old-school sandbox play is directly relevant to Gygaxian dungeoncrawling and why it's cool just further demonstrates your clear disinterest in honest understanding rather than what you always do: preach to an audience of yourself.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;650431But welcoming, eager, and helpful, it isn't.

You know we get along pretty well, i presume?

Well, if that's a given, then hopefully you'll accept my as-close-to-neutral comment at face value.

You did come off as somewhat incredulous that no-one had decided to answer your questions. It was a bit entitled - as if folk should have written a nice dissertation for you. A bit dance-monkey-dance.

That might have put a nose or two out of joint.

Either that or it's simple RPGsite mating season and everyone is marking their territory.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;650431That's great, but not what I'm asking about. I'm looking for the Gygaxian dungeon-crawling. A primer on it, why its adherents like it, what they feel enhances or detracts from it, how other people can get started on it. What dungeons are particularly suited to it, classic or recent?

.

I am not a huge dungeon crawl guy or a huge Gygax follower. But I have to say when I went back and re-read the 1E DMG, it added a lot to my game for exploration. It is a bit hard to put my finger on it. Part of it is a grew up playing D&D so all those little rules on explortion and the accompanying advice was familiar even if I had clouded many of the details. But part of it is the enthusiasm and having someone talk about it as if its something the reader has no understanding of. There's a newness to it that get's you excited to start populating hexs and dungeon hallways even if that really isn't your thing. But primarily the the way turns and encounters work made me comfortable as a gming running a style that really isnt my natural approach (there are procedures in place, and that makes it easy for me). I do think the book has some downsides to it, is unclear and not well organized in places. But this is one area that I think its reputation for quality is well deserved.

That said, I dont think you have to take the Gygax approach. When I ran my last D&D  campaign I went for a more old school exploration style that I started out on. I drew on the 1E dmg, on the 2E dmg and on the 3E dmg, then added in my own material and procedures that worked for me,