Quote from: Haffrung;647758Nope. Mechanically, it's the first edition since 2nd that you don't have to house-rule the fuck out of to play without a grid. It's also far less complex than 3E.

There is a bit more to old school than "play without a grid". To be honest I'm not even sure it's not old school to play with a grid; I think this is immaterial.

Old school might mean different things to different people -- "rules-lite" for some, "rose-tinted glasses" for others. But for me it's the emphasis on exploring and taming a fantasy world, as opposed to tactical combat which was so important to 3e and 4e.

I'm an Older Gamer, been at it since 1978. I often moved from one edition to the next in a number of systems. But for me, WotC burned the bridges between us. There isn't any way they can get me or my money back. So in my case at least, the 'appeal to the older gamers' strategy is failing.

Quote from: Haffrung;647758Really, it's the first rules-medium edition of D&D.

And there it is. It's not even a difficult idea.

Quote from: Tetsubo;647830I'm an Older Gamer, been at it since 1978. I often moved from one edition to the next in a number of systems. But for me, WotC burned the bridges between us. There isn't any way they can get me or my money back. So in my case at least, the 'appeal to the older gamers' strategy is failing.

Why is that?

For me, returning to AD&D after a long hiatus I found that 3.x was dying and Pathfinder was starting. Thing that got me at that stage? The damn complicated character sheet and a rule book that assumed you'd played 3.x and were continuing. I glazed over, dropped it and the game, and went to and formed my own 'not old enough to be' old school 2E group.

I didn't like the D20 D&D. 4E equally didn't sit well but I can appreciate bits of it, but getting those bits to play well without 'thur gridz' is a right royal pain in the ass.

I suppose it was too much change for the sake of change, unnecessary complexity ≠ fun.

Quote from: Haffrung;647758It's also far less complex than 3E.
Really, it's the first rules-medium edition of D&D.  

That's like saying Federation & Empire is lighter than ASL. Technically true, but ...


I run 5e sometimes to help out at a game store Wednesday Encounters night. It IS simpler but it's still full of nonsense. We are playing 3rd level right now and there's lots of "I take half damage because of Curse of the World Bizarre feat!" and "My friend is 5' away?!!? That let's me backstab him in the face!" bullcrappery. The morons still spend too long adding up their to-hit and damage bonuses as well. Maybe that parts just a habit from 3e/4e though. And maybe the "light" version strips all that crap out and/or it's possible to buy supplements from WOTC again.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;647840I run 5e sometimes to help out at a game store Wednesday Encounters night. It IS simpler but it's still full of nonsense. We are playing 3rd level right now and there's lots of "I take half damage because of Curse of the World Bizarre feat!" and "My friend is 5' away?!!? That let's me backstab him in the face!" bullcrappery.

Annoyingly, the play-test packets have got worse and worse in this regard.

QuoteThe morons still spend too long adding up their to-hit and damage bonuses as well. Maybe that parts just a habit from 3e/4e though.

This seems to have got better though; the myriad bonuses to damage in the packet before last where just insane.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;647838Why is that?

For me, returning to AD&D after a long hiatus I found that 3.x was dying and Pathfinder was starting. Thing that got me at that stage? The damn complicated character sheet and a rule book that assumed you'd played 3.x and were continuing. I glazed over, dropped it and the game, and went to and formed my own 'not old enough to be' old school 2E group.

I didn't like the D20 D&D. 4E equally didn't sit well but I can appreciate bits of it, but getting those bits to play well without 'thur gridz' is a right royal pain in the ass.

I suppose it was too much change for the sake of change, unnecessary complexity ≠ fun.

Speaking just for myself, 4E was such a travesty of a system that I want nothing to do with the company that created it. Their entire marketing campaign during that era seemed to be boiled down to 'toss the loyal customers under the bus and sign on new ones'. As someone on Usenetonce said, I was fired as a customer. I can not in good faith ever give money to a company like that. Nor endorse their products. If someone likes Next, game on. But I will not be joining their number.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;647840I run 5e sometimes to help out at a game store Wednesday Encounters night. It IS simpler but it's still full of nonsense. We are playing 3rd level right now and there's lots of "I take half damage because of Curse of the World Bizarre feat!" and "My friend is 5' away?!!? That let's me backstab him in the face!"

What specific rules in the packet allow this?  I'm curious.  One of the most complex classes, monk, does have an ability that allows to you reduce damage, but that's at level 5.  And the abilities certainly are no more complex than AD&D's monk class.

Quote. The morons still spend too long adding up their to-hit and damage bonuses as well. .

Seeing as how the character sheet has a place for your total bonus to hit and damage right next to the weapon type, and at 3rd level all you have to really add is your attack bonus for class and any attribute bonus, they must be morons.

"You are a 3rd level fighter, so your attack bonus is +2.  You have a strength of 16 (a +3 bonus to hit and damage), so your bonus to hit is a total of +5."

"Adding +5 to my die roll is too hard to figure out."

...morons indeed...

Quote from: Tetsubo;647862Speaking just for myself, 4E was such a travesty of a system that I want nothing to do with the company that created it. Their entire marketing campaign during that era seemed to be boiled down to 'toss the loyal customers under the bus and sign on new ones'. As someone on Usenetonce said, I was fired as a customer. I can not in good faith ever give money to a company like that. Nor endorse their products. If someone likes Next, game on. But I will not be joining their number.

Saying it once, fair enough.

Saying it as many times as you've said it? Makes you sound like a whiny cunt, and no smart company would want anything to do with you.  The more you whine like this, the more you promote WOTC.  Because people look at you, and think to themselves, "If a whiny little bitch moans and complains this much about something, it must be good."  Why don't you give it a rest already, and get over it.  You've been doing this for five years now.

The poll we have right now if the fans of a game have driven you away from a game? Yeah, that's you.  Whatever game you like, I'd be inclined to shy away from it.  And please, don't remind me of whatever that game is - I don't want it tainted by a whimpering, sniveling pule like yourself.  Because nobody wants to be around a room full of fans who sound like teenage girls on the rag, incessantly complaining about how the popular girl in class once said something rude to them and ignored them.

It's time to just play the game you like, and stop bitching about the games you do not.  Particularly this many years later, that shit is old, and stale, and makes you look awful.

Quote from: Mistwell;647866Saying it once, fair enough.

Saying it as many times as you've said it? Makes you sound like a whiny... etc

C'mon he answered on topic, was asked to elaborate and then did so in a rather clear and non-emo way.

Talk about slight overreaction

Quote from: Mistwell;647866Saying it once, fair enough.

Saying it as many times as you've said it? Makes you sound like a whiny cunt, and no smart company would want anything to do with you.  The more you whine like this, the more you promote WOTC.  Because people look at you, and think to themselves, "If a whiny little bitch moans and complains this much about something, it must be good."  Why don't you give it a rest already, and get over it.  You've been doing this for five years now.

The poll we have right now if the fans of a game have driven you away from a game? Yeah, that's you.  Whatever game you like, I'd be inclined to shy away from it.  And please, don't remind me of whatever that game is - I don't want it tainted by a whimpering, sniveling pule like yourself.  Because nobody wants to be around a room full of fans who sound like teenage girls on the rag, incessantly complaining about how the popular girl in class once said something rude to them and ignored them.

It's time to just play the game you like, and stop bitching about the games you do not.  Particularly this many years later, that shit is old, and stale, and makes you look awful.

And people have asked why I shun you, Mistwell....

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;647867C'mon he answered on topic, was asked to elaborate and then did so in a rather clear and non-emo way.

Talk about slight overreaction

He's been saying the same thing incessantly for half a decade.  You tell me, when is enough, enough? When is it appropriate for someone to point it out?

Quote from: jeff37923;647868And people have asked why I shun you, Mistwell....

No they haven't.  Nobody cares Jeff.  And you fail even at shunning.  If you meant it, you'd stick me on ignore.  You don't mean it though, you just want others to hear you complain.  I got no problem with you though.  We agree sometimes, disagree other times, and there is no issue between us as far as I am concerned.  But hey, if you do think there is an issue - do the manly thing and stick me on ignore, rather than continuing to bitch.  It's no wonder you white knighted Testubo.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;647865What specific rules in the packet allow this?  I'm curious.  One of the most complex classes, monk, does have an ability that allows to you reduce damage, but that's at level 5.  And the abilities certainly are no more complex than AD&D's monk class.



Seeing as how the character sheet has a place for your total bonus to hit and damage right next to the weapon type, and at 3rd level all you have to really add is your attack bonus for class and any attribute bonus, they must be morons.

"You are a 3rd level fighter, so your attack bonus is +2.  You have a strength of 16 (a +3 bonus to hit and damage), so your bonus to hit is a total of +5."

"Adding +5 to my die roll is too hard to figure out."

...morons indeed...

Rogue->Level2 "Distract" is the 1/2 damage thing
"Benefit: When a creature within 5 feet of you that can see or hear you hits with an attack, you can use your reaction to cause the damage of the attack to be halved."


Rogue->Assassin is the bullshit Backstab thing.
"Backstab: Once on your turn when you make a melee attack, you can give yourself advantage on that attack roll if there is at least one creature hostile to your target within 5 feet of it."


On a completely unfair/granular level: the 4E adventure conversion sucks. PC's hit at least 50% of the time, players are routinely doing 15-17 points of damage, and creatures have 35+ hit points.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;647779Absolutely true.  90% of the people I see in real life aren't nearly as rigid as those of us who post on forums

It's a side effect of constant arguments.

When people are exposed to evidence supporting a position they disagree with, after hearing the evidence they almost always become more committed to their original position, more committed to their disagreement.

Evidence, logic, and debate make people more polarized, and less likely to listen to opposing positions.

So, the people who are the most flexible and adaptable are those who argue and debate the least. That is, the least invested.

And the people who are the most rigid and inflexible — whoops. I mean "most committed and devoted" are those who argue with others frequently.

Discussion — actual, real discussion — tends to affect people differently. But arguing (via evidence and reason) solidifies opposition, it doesn't persuade.