• Why kick SJG when they seem to be decent folk trying to keep things steady?
• If you want a simple OSR version of TFT for some lightweight 3d6 fun, here's one that I play and rather enjoy: http://heroworlds.blogspot.co.uk/
  
• Why not play GURPS (it's rather well supported with a massive back catalogue) rather than ranting about systems?

I think EABA might be a contender here, but I can't say for sure without knowing more.

And one thing that would help GURPS's popularity is for SJG to release it as open source. The logic that 'giving it away for free' will cut into sales is flawed, and is unsupported by what happened with Pathfinder, Legend, (Mongoose) Traveller, and FATE Core.

EABA and CORPS really should have been on my list of alternatives.  If they were a single system instead of two different systems I'd probably think of them more often.

I am actually running two different GURPS campaigns in my store but it hasn't done anything for GURPS sales so far.  I've run a lot of GURPS in the last year and I'll probably run more.  But I doubt I'll sell much more.  It's just too intimidating for most people.

Steve Jackson has repeatedly said that he won't make GURPS open source.  Really it makes sense for SJG to control their game's content.  But doing so means new material slows to a crawl and that means sales slow to a crawl.  

Why kick SJG?  I guess the Dr. Kromm quote, combined with various other discussions around here just lately rubbed me the wrong way.  Be grateful we even take your money and shut up?  Bite me.

Quote from: tzunder;647322

• Why not play GURPS (it's rather well supported with a massive back catalogue) rather than ranting about systems?

Far be it from me to put words in people's mouths, but:

He wants a GURPS-a-like to write his own material for. An Open Source game, a GURPS OSRIC, if it makes sense.

There's a difference between "playing a game" and "releasing supplements for a game". Also "releasing supplements" and "releasing supplements without being sued".

In my mind.

Really my biggest problem with GURPS is taking the time to sift through all the options to get the campaign I want.

Taking the time to re-engineer the system from the ground up makes sorting through the options nearly inconsequential with regard to comparative time spent on the matter.

The only easy win is to shrug and play other games.

Speaking more as a Hero guy, but the principle being the same, I've got the stuff I need. I don't need a clone, a new version, or loads of new books.

I'm good, thanks. Sorry that my attitude won't support a bunch of happily employed game designers, but there it is.

Quote from: tzunder;647322

• Why kick SJG when they seem to be decent folk trying to keep things steady?

I am harsh on SJ Games on one issues because of their condescending reply when I took the time to carefully write up a problem I noticed with the accessibility and perception of the GURPS line.

The basic gist is that since the late 80s I been involved with various gaming convention and more important several LARP groups, which had a lot of tabletop games as well, in Western PA. Which meant I had contact with a number of gamers, low hundreds, centered in Pittsburgh but extending to the surrounding region.

Being the GURPS fan that I am, along the fact that most everybody involve likes play all type of game, meant that I try to recruit people into playing GURPS.

I had a handful of people try GURPS and really like it. And when they don't like it the overwhelming reason is that it too much work to start up a campaign or create a character. By overwhelming I mean like it the reason for 80% of the folks I talk too.

Likewise for my players nearly all of them enjoy my GURPS campaign but most say variants "The only reason I play GURPS is because you make it easy Rob".

And pretty the only GURPS campaigns I play in are those run by two oldest friends. The two friends that made the initial plunge with me in the late 80s.

By far the most successful period I had in recruiting GURPS gamers is when the 2nd Edition boxed set was out. Looking back that was because the 2nd Edition Boxed while a generic system presented itself largely as a fantasy system.  And you could combine it with the first Magic and the first Bestiary to get system that was comparable to AD&D and cheaper. And it was all thin softbound books which made it seems less complicated.

So when I laid this all out several years ago all I got was condescending replies and excuses why it couldn't fixed and how SJ Games wasn't interested in fixing, instead of going "let me check that and see if there is a problem here".

I bring it up occasionally afterwards and either the same excuses are repeated or something new is blamed like the market downturn in recent years.

This wasn't the only complaint I made. Some eventually got acted on because they were also echoed by a bunch of other folks. I just about had a heart attack when I saw the first two Dungeon Fantasy PDFs got released as I figured they would never do them due to Steve Jackson's antipathy towards D&D.

They still have issues with creating settings and adventures as good as their competition. Some are good like Transhuman Space, Tredroy, Harkwood, and Mirror of the Fire Demon. But others just keep beating a dead horse like the hardcover Banestorm.

Quote from: tzunder;647322

• Why not play GURPS (it's rather well supported with a massive back catalogue) rather than ranting about systems?

I do.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;647342Really my biggest problem with GURPS is taking the time to sift through all the options to get the campaign I want.

You are most definitely not alone in that complaint about GURPS.

Quote from: David Johansen;647147Which makes me also wonder if there's potential for a fan driven, crowd sourced GURPS replacement problem.  I recognize that there's a lot of material out there but for anyone who loves the game and wants to contribute to its success SJG is like a great big wall of piss off.

So, what about it?  Is there potential to build a modular open source 3d6 engine with a realistic tactical bent that offers a compatible touch stone for personal creations without the resistance of a controlling publisher that lacks the vision or desire to go forward?

Mechanics can't be copyrighted, in the same way that lists of data like phone directories can't be copyrighted, so there's nothing stopping anyone using the ideas behind GURPs. They just can't use the name or dance too close to any text released by SJG. I'm not even sure whether or not you could put 'GURPs compatible' on the cover, but in theory there's nothing stopping anyone releasing a GURPs compatible bunch of stuff with the numbers filed off.

Obviously I amn't a lawyer, if you take this advice it's your ass etc etc.

Quote from: David Johansen;647161You get the direction and focus and a whole lot of the work done but it also removes the aspect of getting people involved and making them feel like a part of the process.

There's also the question of money of course.  Marco owns JAGS and probably would like a share of any money made.

I think you've moved on from this, but thought I'd answer anyway.

I think there's room for a lot more work. Version tailored to specific settings and adventures for example. Much of the same things done for D20. The lack of such things was always something of a failure with HERO (poor build standards for what they did, and what they did wasn't much) and a strength for GURPS.

I think the Forge proved that if you get ten or so people writing for something (in their case an idea, in yours- a system), you can make a big splash. Getting that ten is difficult.

Or not perhaps not. When I had Age of Heroes online as a free download I had two people create campaign supplements for it unasked. If that's possible for that game, it's likely possible for JAGS.

As for what Marco would what? You'd have to ask him, but last I checked he gave his game away for free. I doubt he'd complained about people adding on to it.

I played GURPS along time ago, think it was when it came in a box set?  It was kinda easy and was fun for awhile and we liked it.  years passed the game was lost or what have you and I saw GURPS 4E, picked it up in the book store, took it home we tried it out made a few characters for banestorm setting and played the game.  We tried several other times as well but after awhile we just gave up. as the system just seemed way too bulky to my friends and me and you maybe able to create any type of character you want but these days there are plenty of other games that can do the same things with less headaches in both character creation and combat.  Not to mention we really hated the 3d6 method and thought a 2d10 combat roll method would have been better.

I'll just leave this here...

http://opend6.wikia.com/wiki/Open_D6_Resurrection_Wiki

Ok, so maybe it's not GURPS, not by a long shot, but it did come to replace GURPS for me, and it uses D6s to boot

Well, mostly I'm just testing the waters on ideas.  I frequently seen GURPS fans wanting to submit stuff and having had a similar experience to estar's (well said by the way, well said) I find myself warning them that SJG isn't exactly friendly to new talent or ideas.

There was another one this week and in conjunction with the Dr. Kromm quote that I found pretty condescending and offensive (I'm sorry I bought your products master please don't kick me again.) and the discussion here about companies not taking advantage of the D&D 4e catastrophe it got me thinking about building an alternative.

What testing the waters has shown me is that people are too fragmented or too loyal for such a project to work.

Still, it's got me thinking.  For a few years now I've had my design work on the back burner.  Starting up the store and all that to try promoting and selling the games I'd like to see do well.  I'd concluded that the market was too saturated and too tight to really allow new start ups to do well and decided to support the existing games that I liked even if I was unhappy with where they were at or going.  I spent a year helping to revise Rolemaster into a game I have no desire to play for a company I have no desire to support.  I spent a year running GURPS games for people who were playing because it was what I was running and not because they had any real interest in the system.  Heck I even failed to give away GURPS books a couple times this year.

So where does this leave me?  The store's fun and I'll run it as long as I can keep it sovent without seriously risking my financial well being.  But I think it's time to knuckle down and get my own games out into the market place.  They've progressed quite a bit this year and Incandescent has seen a decent bit of playtest.  I'll be getting back to my Rolemaster Standard System campaign now that I've got a more stable player base in place again.  

But it's time to finish stuff up and put it out there.  If I don't like how other companies handle their products its time to stop whining about it and take my own shot.  I'm not sure what that means for the store yet.  It's been fun but it's a lot of work and money getting it going and I'm running out of companies I feel any desire to support or promote.

Quote from: David Johansen;647154JAGS is okay but I think the system would need to be a bit looser and more modular.  The whole 4d6-4 thing is a bit of a problem IMO

Not too familiar with JAGS (I have the PA sourcebook they did years ago...Have Not?  It's very good!), but why couldn't you just treat any 6 on a die as a zero?  You get the same spread, no need to subtract.

Quote from: David Johansen;647454It's been fun but it's a lot of work and money getting it going and I'm running out of companies I feel any desire to support or promote.

That's always a danger in just about any field. I hope you work out a solution that suits your needs.