Quote from: Mistwell;645045I frequent clubs? Dude, I am a newish dad...I honestly cannot remember the last club I was in.  Maybe a birthday four years ago?

Yes, previously you were arguing the other side, but you abandoned that with your more recent comments about Steampunk being "as much about aesthetics as anything".  One could have used that sentence in reply to one of your previous posts.  It's not my fault you've decided to take both sides of the debate on simultaneously.

Anyway, an RPG doesn't need art to be a good RPG (though I like good art in my RPGs).  A good Streampunk RPG does not require good Steampunk art to be a good Strampunk RPG.  Your point was quite clearly "Steampunk = Aesthetics" this time around, with this personality that you chose to use, and it was a bullshit point.

Nope.

An rpg conveys themes and moods via aesthetics. Look at the difference in the views of AD&D vs AD&D 2e, despite the system being 99% compatible. My point was not steampunk = aesthetics. Thats merely a failure on your part to understand the difference in what works for an RPG where being able to evoke and inspire is at least half the battle for new players trying to suss out what a game is about.

Just as a novel is not devoid of aesthetics as you seem to think it is. The quality of prose is judgeed on its ability to convey mood and evoke imagery. This is especially true with a novel trying to evoke a specific genre. The methods that work for a novel, however, do not work as well for an rpg.

And if you don't go to clubs, that makes your previous statement about clubs even more asinine.

So what are the best Steampunk novels in whoever's opinion?

Quote from: CRKrueger;645055So what are the best Steampunk novels in whoever's opinion?

Ones written for that genre or retroactivelly given the term?

Quote from: TristramEvans;645059Ones written for that genre or retroactivelly given the term?

Either. Both.

Quote from: CRKrueger;645060Either. Both.

Well, HG Wells and Jules Verne are the grand-daddies here.

The Difference Engine by Gibson is considered the hallmark of the genre at this point.

I enjoyed Perdido Street Station, though its more of a mix of steampunk and fantasy.

The Steam Man of the Prairies is an oldie but goodie.

The Diamond Age is also quite good.

The Vesuivius Club gets a recommendation from Stephen Fry.

But my favourite of all (which also mixes steamopunk and fantasy of a Doctor Who-ish variety, is Garth Nix's Keys to the Kingdom series.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794Both genres are pervaded with a sense of alienation or men that are naturally loners and follow their own code.  Who for whatever reason don't belong in society.  There is a Nietzschean overtone to the genres in that for whatever reason the protagonist's "God is dead" and they have to make up their own rules, and usually even have a moral certitude in deciding right and wrong regardless of what anyone else might think about that.  They aren't out and out anti-establishment, but they don't put much value on the judgments of authority.

You called?

RPGPundit

Quote from: TristramEvans;643963Well, the term originated in literary circles in the 1980s, coined by JW Jeters. It was a well-known subgenre of science fiction by the early 90s, with Gibson's The Difference Engine usually cited as the work that gave the term widespread acceptance. It was first used in the title of a book in 1995 with DiFillipo's Steampunk Trilogy. GURPs steampunk was written in 2000. Castle Falkenstein and Forgotten furtures predate that, and GURPs Steampunk was a reaction to a huge trend towards Steampunk in gaming at that time, also evinced by the Planescape setting.

Meanwhile, the steampunk as fashion/craft trend is cited as beginning at Burning Man in 2006.

That's actually pretty accurate. 2000 is about when I saw signs of the movement coalescing into something more consistent, and 2006 is about when Abney Park made their transition.

But let's for a moment forget the moniker, and go by the elements that identify Steampunk. As you know we can go all the way back to Verne and Wells if we want, and the 'original' definition included works by Tim Powers and 'gonzo historicals'. So what's the commonality?

Most literary and musical movements have a much more definitive origin and ethos than Steampunk. And the only consistent element is one of aesthetics (as you pointed out), even in literature. So I identified the movement as starting after those elements were sufficiently identified and refined, but I'm reconsidering that now.

Quote from: Mistwell;643975More than one person here is telling you you're unaware of a huge segment of it, and decades that happened prior to your apparent awareness of it.

You mean the person you're angry at for taking the 'other side' of the argument?

There are more people here not only effectively saying that Steampunk is purely about aesthetics, but dismissing its legitimacy because of it.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644794There is an undercurrent in literature (and film) that predates cyberpunk,

EXCELLENT essay on Cyberpunk BTW.

Quote from: Mistwell;644819Seriously, if you think steampunk is about aesthetics, you don't know what steampunk really is.

Dude, he's still arguing your side, and he didn't say it was only about aesthetics.

You know what? This argument is stupid. Actually, every argument on this board is stupid, but this one is especially stupid. So if you're ever at Steampunk World's Faire, hit me up. Drinks are on me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;645055So what are the best Steampunk novels in whoever's opinion?

Glad you asked!

Here's some of my favorite Steampunk Novels, according to my own eccentric definition - alternate gonzo history and anachropunk takes on technology (and fantasy, in some cases... I likes me some gaslamp.)

D.M. Cornish's Monster Blood Tattoo Series.  [Alchemypunk]

Scott Westerfield's Leviathan Trilogy.  [Straight-up Steampunk]

Gail Carriger's Parasol Protectorate.  [Gaslamp Victorian Fantasy]

Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard Sequence. [Medieval Alchemypunk]

And let's face it, Gents - Steampunk is hardly a cut-and-dried word.
Maybe the word I made up above - 'Anachropunk' is a better one,
though I have no intention to have bitter arguments about etymology.  

Quote from: Brad Elliott;645624Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard Sequence.

In no way is that steampunk.

Quote from: The Traveller;645625In no way is that steampunk.

I did say 'in my eccentric definition' - alternate history with another take on technology or fantasy.

The Gentleman Bastard Sequence is another form of 'alchemypunk' - instead of steam, alchemy.

To my mind, 'steampunk' is the overarching term - like 'anime' - and 'alchemypunk' is the subset.

I'm way more interested in building a more thorough set of definitions than telling people they're wrong.

So what other kinds of 'steampunk' are there - dieselpunk, gaslamp fantasy, alchemypunk... what more?

I did like the Oswald Bastable stories by Moorcock, but they are largely the same each book!

Quote from: Brad Elliott;645659I did say 'in my eccentric definition' - alternate history with another take on technology or fantasy.

The Gentleman Bastard Sequence is another form of 'alchemypunk' - instead of steam, alchemy.

You can call the Lord of the Rings steampunk if you like and welcome to it but if you do it in public forums expect to get pulled up on it. The Lies of Locke Lamora and related books are in no way steampunk, even if you squint really hard at the Oliver Twistiness of them.

Gormenghast was steampunk, but it was a Surprise! in the third book (spoilers!)

Quote from: TristramEvans;646195Gormenghast was steampunk, but it was a Surprise! in the third book (spoilers!)

I wouldn't qualify it as steampunk at all.

Quote from: TristramEvans;646195Gormenghast was steampunk, but it was a Surprise! in the third book (spoilers!)

Well the third book did show the world outside Castle Gormenghast (and its immediate surroundings) to be a fairly modern, industrialized place, yes. Wouldn't call it "Steampunk" myself though - do you have good reasons to consider it so (and if so I'd love to hear them, I mean that non-sarcastically actually)?

I mean if anything the world outside Gormenghast seems too advanced for Steampunk. I didn't get a Victorian Age vibe outta it, anyway. A Gilded Age vibe, maybe.