First a bit of background:

One might get the impression from my writings that I don't play many games and I wouldn't say that's untrue these days, it's just not absolute.

My sons were into Warhammer 40K, drawn to by cool minis and other factors and I rolled with that, interested in if they could find the faults in the system and setting or not. They did, but it still retained a 'cool' factor for them even so.

Recently my Son decided that he wanted to try his hand at running a Dark Heresy/Only War campaign. He has a play-by-post one on going that I heard is the quite popular for a non-D&D game (I haven't checked it out) and he wanted to run it for our group on a visit back home.

Sure, I'm cool with that- he's family. And we had a good time.


There were interesting things to note about the game design and how it played. So, my semi-random observations (almost a review):

- Just reading the rules told me that normally this isn't a game I'd consider playing. Most of what follows was clear from a read through.

- It's fun watching others trip over the mechanical problems in play seeing how much I could catch pre-play and what I missed. It's something like taking a final exam for a class you enjoyed

- The rules are poorly organized and inconsistent across the game lines. Now to be fair, these are different game lines (Dark Heresy, Only War, Death Watch). And to only be fair the buyer really doesn't care about that because they're all for the same setting and thus should be in sync.

A good example of this is that auto-fire is a negative modifier one game line (Dark Heresy if I remember correctly), and a positive modifier in another (Only War). There is no way to justify that.

- Who thought two damage systems were a good idea? It has 'Wounds' that play just like D&D Hit Points in that they're meaningless until they're gone at which point things convert to critical damage (which really jacks you up).

So basically you beat on your foe without effect for a bit, and then he dies in a gushing fountain of blood. D&D players would be happy with this, but really no else as they'd likely be happier with a single damage system instead of the two step.

This duel damage method also makes auto-fire the go to weapons system btw.


- All stats for everything from human to space marine to a Hive Tyrant must fit with a 1-100 scale. What a pain.

In practical terms, this means a very narrow range of operation given that in play you want a reasonable chance of success and a reasonable chance of failure in all but the most extreme conditions. Thus one would expect the range of practical skill to very from 35-75 or so- and sure enough that is exactly what the game does.

Very odd to see the entire range of creatures fall into that range.

- It has the old 1st edition RuneQuest problem with combat. Your attack skill is completely independent of your Defense skill, and worse indepentant of the skills of your opponent.

Lets say you have a 65% Parry. Fighting a 3-year child? You have a 65% Parry. Fighting a Space Marine Captain? You have a 65% Parry.

30 years and designers are still making that mistake. Sigh.


- Heavy offense bias as in most RPGs. Up against a foe witih a high Parry or Dodge? He only gets one or two of those- just hit him a third time and he's as open as any paper target would be.

Thus combat consists of focused fire moving from single target to single target. Does this match the fiction and fluff? No, I guess that wasn't the point of the game.

- With such a narrow range of practical skill, the real advancement is found in things called Talents which can grant an extra dodge or attack, more damage, etc. These show the differences in creatures (say Guardsmen, Space Marine and Hive Tyrant) better than the Stats do.

But there's a problem here even so. There just aren't enough talents and traits to really make things different once you've made more than a handful of things. You'll find that players (and the harder creatures) will tend to grab up the same abilities (assuming their advancement tables allow it) because they are the effective ones.

- Speaking of Advancement, you'll run into gems like a Sister of Battle gaining the "Litanies of Battle" at Rank 3 (or something). A skill that uses a Charm Roll to determine if bonuses are successfully gained- only to find that same Sister can't have the Charm skill until the next higher rank

- The setting is still worthless deconstruction of what is good in religion, western culture, and mankind. Very British that. On the other hand this is easy to deal with using the tag line from the Acension supplement: "Everything You Believe is a Lie". Nothing like deconstructing a deconstructionist work. Fun in buckets.

- Toughness is more important than armor, and for Space Marines can even reach higher values! This is because weapons may ignore Armor with their AP stat, but they can't ignore Toughness (a few do get to ignore unnatural toughtness).

All that fluff saying that fire is bouncing off the Space Marine armor? It's lie, it's actually blowing through and sticking in their thick hide for no effect (and I mean *no* effect). Oh, it broke the armor's enviromental seal along the way (just to make it even more clear that the round is sticking in th Marine's hide).

- Melee weapons do far more damage than 20mm explosive rockets.

- Due to bonuses (from many sources) the low skill values in the game work fine for combat. But man do they suck with non-combat skills. Don't depend upon them, for they will fail as often as a coin flip- and that's almost the best case.

- The Modules assume that players are fools and/or jerks. A bit like the old Shadowrun modules in that way. I suppose one could say that being a fool and a jerk is part of the setting and thus the only proper way to play...

- It's fun calling out "Rightous Fury" die roll after die roll when running a Grey Knight...

- I still love Sisters of Battle (with just a slight change here and there), they are just plain cool.

And I think I'll stop there.

We'll finish out the Module we're playing using the core rules. For the short term problems such as those above aren't really important. If however we want to continue playing in deconstructionist version of their deconstructionist setting- we'll have to convert the game to something that works for us.

Seems about right. the setting is fantastic, the rules are mediocre.

Gleichman, I'm mildly surprised you survived the experience without shutting down in a haze of smoke and sparks like a 1950s SF robot faced with the Liar Paradox or asked the last digit of pi.

Since your appraisal seems uncharacteristically open-minded, I'll ask an honest question:

When you saw your kids "trip over mechanical problems that you caught pre-play" -- do you feel these "trips" actively subtracted from their enjoyment of the game?

Quote from: The Butcher;642286When you saw your kids "trip over mechanical problems that you caught pre-play" -- do you feel these "trips" actively subtracted from their enjoyment of the game?

No more than I did. Which means that for the short term, not much. We still had fun and expect to have fun for a while longer.

Online I come off more... locked into my mindset that I am in real life. In truth we can cruise for a while even on rather bad systems much as I can watch a bad movie for fun.


Long term...

The problems will get worse over time, and eventually one or more people will throw up their hands in disgust (often that isn't me btw). If that happens the campaign is generally at an end, at least for a while. So before that happens (and if we remain interested) we'll convert to a new system.

For now however we'll honor my son's work and effort and finish the rather heavily modified module he had planned. And I expect we'll all have fun doing so.

Sounds like Dark Heresy hasn't strayed too far from WFRP 1e mechanics.

Quote from: gleichman;642274- The rules are poorly organized and inconsistent across the game lines. Now to be fair, these are different game lines (Dark Heresy, Only War, Death Watch). And to only be fair the buyer really doesn't care about that because they're all for the same setting and thus should be in sync.

Only War is the newest version of the Warhammer 40k rule-set, so it's the most complete rules. In many ways, the different Warhammer 40k rule sets are minor edition changes than the same rulebook.

QuoteWho thought two damage systems were a good idea? It has 'Wounds' that play just like D&D Hit Points in that they're meaningless until they're gone at which point things convert to critical damage (which really jacks you up).

Hit Point systems work fine, but the ablative critical hits that are 40k Hit Points just doesn't work. Personally, I think the Wound system in Warhammer Fantasy 3e better represents the concept.

QuoteAll stats for everything from human to space marine to a Hive Tyrant must fit with a 1-100 scale. What a pain.

While true, the game does have Unnatural Characteristics, which allows characters to multiple the modifier by 2 for certain rolls (or sometimes 3 or 4). It does make a huge difference in making larger, tougher monsters feel unique.

QuoteMelee weapons do far more damage than 20mm explosive rockets.

Ah yes, but this IS in line with the fiction.

Quotewe'll have to convert the game to something that works for us.

What do you have in mind?

But overall, I do agree. I do enjoy the Warhammer Fantasy system, but applying the rules to a larger-than-life Science Fiction/Fantasy game feels off.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;642323Only War is the newest version of the Warhammer 40k rule-set, so it's the most complete rules. In many ways, the different Warhammer 40k rule sets are minor edition changes than the same rulebook

One could attempt that, except some of the books insist on keeping the differences, especially with psyker rules. Edit: Of course they sort of boxed themselves in to that mess on their own.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;642323While true, the game does have Unnatural Characteristics, which allows characters to multiple the modifier by 2 for certain rolls (or sometimes 3 or 4). It does make a huge difference in making larger, tougher monsters feel unique.

Yes, but while those traits alter the Stat Bonus, they do not alter the stat and thus does not alter skills. So a Unnational Agility affects initiative roll but does nothing for the Dodge skill.

So it's a halfway measure, in a way it makes it even worse.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;642323What do you have in mind?

The players are asking for a Age of Heroes conversion and that won't be too hard at all.

While the rules for DH/RT/DW/OW aren't necessarily perfectly aligned (particularly regarding psykers), it's relevant to note that some of the more 'obvious' problems aren't really problems.

For instance:

Quote- Speaking of Advancement, you'll run into gems like a Sister of Battle gaining the "Litanies of Battle" at Rank 3 (or something). A skill that uses a Charm Roll to determine if bonuses are successfully gained- only to find that same Sister can't have the Charm skill until the next higher rank

Of course, Charm is a Basic skill which means every character has it at half of the attached Characteristic.  So yes, they do have Charm.  They don't get it at full bonus until the following Rank.  This is true of a great many skills.

Also, weapon qualities makes a lot of difference in combat.  For instance, your 65% parry against a SM captain is, quite possibly, going to be facing a power sword.  Power swords have a 75% chance of cutting THROUGH your parrying weapon with each strike unless it is also a power weapon, which pretty much renders your Parry to a 0.

I haven't had many problems with the rules systems (other than Telekine psyker abilities, primarily).

QuoteA good example of this is that auto-fire is a negative modifier one game line (Dark Heresy if I remember correctly), and a positive modifier in another (Only War). There is no way to justify that.

Maybe it's a negative modifier in Deathwatch or Black Crusade?
Cause it's a +10% bonus to semi-auto, and a +20% to full auto in Dark Heresy.

Quote from: Novastar;642390Maybe it's a negative modifier in Deathwatch or Black Crusade?
Cause it's a +10% bonus to semi-auto, and a +20% to full auto in Dark Heresy.

You are correct and I did remember it wrong. It's Only War that differs with a -10 to Full Auto, +0 semi auto, and +10 to standard attack.

Which is odd if you think about. If you wanted anyone to spray and pray it would be the Guard...

Quote from: CerilianSeeming;642381While the rules for DH/RT/DW/OW aren't necessarily perfectly aligned (particularly regarding psykers), it's relevant to note that some of the more 'obvious' problems aren't really problems.

They are for me.

Half of a stat (for a basic skill) is basically worthless, you're talking a 15% success chance on average with that and maybe 20% at best. Heck, even a 65% skill chance sucks IMO and play style.

And I already talked about the bonuses making combat more reasonable.

Power Swords? Not something you start with and even if you did- not something I consider valid when examining the system. If you need gear to fix a rule problem- the rule problem still exists. A coat of paint doesn't change that.

Quote from: CerilianSeeming;642381I haven't had many problems with the rules systems (other than Telekine psyker abilities, primarily).

I'll grant that's quite likely, especially if one doesn't extended campaigns with the same characters over at least of couple of years real time as we tend to do. As I said, we'll likely enjoy it for the length of this one module.

But we see the writing on the wall. We won't be able to keep ignoring the problems after that module.

Quote from: gleichman;642405You are correct and I did remember it wrong. It's Only War that differs with a -10 to Full Auto, +0 semi auto, and +10 to standard attack.

Which is odd if you think about. If you wanted anyone to spray and pray it would be the Guard...

Don't have Only War (yet), but that does seem a bassackwards rule change.

Maybe it's a reference to the substandard imperial guard gear.  Lasguns and Flac armor.

Quote from: David Johansen;642415Maybe it's a reference to the substandard imperial guard gear.  Lasguns and Flac armor.

Generally the less accurate the weapon, the more value high rates of fire have when using it. So Only War is still backwards from what one would expect.

I think it was an attempt to give auto-fire attacks a downside since the damage system so strongly favors their use (to burn through those ablative wounds). But I could be wrong.

Quote from: gleichman;642274First a bit of background:

- It's fun watching others trip over the mechanical problems in play seeing how much I could catch pre-play and what I missed. It's something like taking a final exam for a class you enjoyed

It's not the best ruleset, and i've said so many times. But to be fair i didn't see a huge amount of problems in play other than general complexity.

Quote- The rules are poorly organized and inconsistent across the game lines. Now to be fair, these are different game lines (Dark Heresy, Only War, Death Watch). And to only be fair the buyer really doesn't care about that because they're all for the same setting and thus should be in sync.

This really is an old criticism.  I don't agree the rules are poorly organised. The books have terrible editing in places and don't scale as well as they should. Percentile system struggles a bit at the top end (ie Space Marines). However the multiple game line approach isn't that bad an idea. Either way GM's will have to struggle with multiple books given the size and complexity of the setting. There's no way one book could do it all justice and each book is fairly complete, besides the setting is unique in that the character 'classes' don't really work together. However there are things that they should have done much better, particularly vehicles/starships. However, Only War has vehicle rules so - with the help of a ton weight of books - there should be some way to make it work!

QuoteA good example of this is that auto-fire is a negative modifier one game line (Dark Heresy if I remember correctly), and a positive modifier in another (Only War). There is no way to justify that.

I would agree. However Dark Heresy's system was designed by a different company. When they went bust FFG took up the line; Only War shares the same changes to that system as Black Crusade which was their first effort at improving the system. It is what it is, and the Dark Heresy system was never that great IMO (though the psyker rules are simpler and I don't get why they were made more involved in later games).

Quote- Who thought two damage systems were a good idea? It has 'Wounds' that play just like D&D Hit Points in that they're meaningless until they're gone at which point things convert to critical damage (which really jacks you up).

There aren't two damage systems. YOu take wounds from damage, when you reach you take critical damage which delivers from a dice roll modified by subsequent wound damage certain effects including death. It's involved, possibly fiddly, but you've mispreresented it somewhat.

QuoteThis duel damage method also makes auto-fire the go to weapons system btw.

Depends on the character and the weapons available to him. That may or may not be true. I'm not a fan of the weapon complexity in the game, but then it's based on a wargame.

Quote- All stats for everything from human to space marine to a Hive Tyrant must fit with a 1-100 scale. What a pain.

Not a huge amount FFG can do except completely start from scratch which will annoy a lot of people, including me looking at my bookshelf.

Quote- It has the old 1st edition RuneQuest problem with combat. Your attack skill is completely independent of your Defense skill, and worse indepentant of the skills of your opponent.

Lets say you have a 65% Parry. Fighting a 3-year child? You have a 65% Parry. Fighting a Space Marine Captain? You have a 65% Parry.

30 years and designers are still making that mistake. Sigh.

Meh, it works in play.

QuoteBut there's a problem here even so. There just aren't enough talents and traits to really make things different once you've made more than a handful of things. You'll find that players (and the harder creatures) will tend to grab up the same abilities (assuming their advancement tables allow it) because they are the effective ones.

Later games give different character types different abilities. As do supplements. I'm not really sure you can say basic DH characters are all the same. Beyond the mechanics they all have very different attitudes: tech priests are alien to most of the Imperium, Psykers are feared and hated, Adepts are way more learned (so to speak) than the average citizen.

Quote- The setting is still worthless deconstruction of what is good in religion, western culture, and mankind. Very British that. On the other hand this is easy to deal with using the tag line from the Acension supplement: "Everything You Believe is a Lie". Nothing like deconstructing a deconstructionist work. Fun in buckets.

You're overthinking the setting.

- Toughness is more important than armor, and for Space Marines can even reach higher values! This is because weapons may ignore Armor with their AP stat, but they can't ignore Toughness (a few do get to ignore unnatural toughtness).

Quote- The Modules assume that players are fools and/or jerks. A bit like the old Shadowrun modules in that way. I suppose one could say that being a fool and a jerk is part of the setting and thus the only proper way to play...

No, being a citizen of the Imperium is living in ignorance. This is the nature of the setting. It's dystopian.