Quote from: estar;629464I think it largely due to a myopia about GURPS as a universal toolkit that caused GURPS to decline faster than its competitors. While I think SJ Games will still had to face the Munchkin vs GURPS (and now Ogre) issue. GURPS would be a lot healthier if it had a standalone powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG. Along with a version for Sci-Fi and a version for Horror.

Yup. I think GURPS is possibly the best crunch to run each of these genres but there are no grab-and-go products for them. Each type of campaign requires combing through the basic set with a filter and having to build a system from the tools therein.

Its worth the effort IF you have the time. There are too many ready to go alternative games out there. Some targeted focused releases could really help the popularity problem.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;629470Yup. I think GURPS is possibly the best crunch to run each of these genres but there are no grab-and-go products for them. Each type of campaign requires combing through the basic set with a filter and having to build a system from the tools therein.

Its worth the effort IF you have the time. There are too many ready to go alternative games out there. Some targeted focused releases could really help the popularity problem.

They could also greatly reduce the complexity.  No matter how well it is explained in the core books, different styles of game have different options that work well.  Sub-selecting this not only gives a less expensive entry point but it leaves you with a lot less text to look over when playing in that setting.

So I heartily agree.

I just use GURPS books for getting setting ideas and then run my game sessions using Mongoose Traveller, which is a nice generic mechanic that is very easy to add equipment, races, vehicles, weapons, skills, careers, etc to.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;629470Yup. I think GURPS is possibly the best crunch to run each of these genres but there are no grab-and-go products for them. Each type of campaign requires combing through the basic set with a filter and having to build a system from the tools therein.

Its worth the effort IF you have the time. There are too many ready to go alternative games out there. Some targeted focused releases could really help the popularity problem.

Yeah, this problem was exasperated with 4th. There is just SO much more to comb through and so many more options presented.

In 3e you could run a basic fantasy game with the core book with just some common sense restrictions and the various supplements were fairly "ready to go". Grab GURPS Camelot and have at it, etc...

4th rolled the two compendiums into the core and vastly increased the workload to carve a particular game out.

Of course to the hardcore GURPS players those are positives. They already used a bajillion source books and the compendiums so having them all more accessible was pure positive.

Quote from: estar;629464I think it largely due to a myopia about GURPS as a universal toolkit that caused GURPS to decline faster than its competitors. While I think SJ Games will still had to face the Munchkin vs GURPS (and now Ogre) issue. GURPS would be a lot healthier if it had a standalone powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG. Along with a version for Sci-Fi and a version for Horror.

Oh, certainly. You could have all the advantages Exploderwizard and Votan cite, plus it'd also go a heck of a long way to counter the impression many people have (including me, based on my memories of the GURPS material I read back in the day) that GURPS = flavourless.

If you could put out a "Powered by GURPS" RPG which was packed with flavour, ready to run from the book, and didn't layer on any complexity which the setting didn't require (for instance, you don't really need a complex vehicle-building system for fantasy, with SF you can dump the magic system entirely, and so on), and if you did a halfway competent job, you'd instantaneously brush away a heap of the factors which put people off GURPS without ruining the experience for the core fanbase even slightly (beyond grousing about having to buy redundant rules along with your cool new setting, but screw it, if you do it right the reprinted rules won't take up that much of the book anyway). Nobody would lose.

I guess it's just stubborn clinging to business philosophies which worked back in the 1980s and 1990s which stops them greenlighting it. That and, like you say, they're too ideologically devoted to GURPS as this beautiful pure generic toolkit despite the fact that more or less all the other pure generic toolkit RPG systems out there - HERO, BRP, etc. - have "Powered By..." lines as well.

Quote from: Warthur;629506If you could put out a "Powered by GURPS" RPG which was packed with flavour, ready to run from the book, and didn't layer on any complexity which the setting didn't require (for instance, you don't really need a complex vehicle-building system for fantasy, with SF you can dump the magic system entirely, and so on), and if you did a halfway competent job, you'd instantaneously brush away a heap of the factors which put people off GURPS without ruining the experience for the core fanbase even slightly (beyond grousing about having to buy redundant rules along with your cool new setting, but screw it, if you do it right the reprinted rules won't take up that much of the book anyway). Nobody would lose.

There is GURPS Discworld upcoming (sometime) which is basically what we want but tied to too idiosyncratic a setting to be really popular (IMO).

Quote from: Piestrio;629508There is GURPS Discworld upcoming (sometime) which is basically what we want but tied to too idiosyncratic a setting to be really popular (IMO).

Now you mention it, I remember the 3E GURPS Discworld was complete in one book too, but I agree that I'm not sure about its RPG potential. I know a lot of gamers who like Pratchett but more or less none who want to game in Discworld. Although there's been a lot of mapmaking and worldbuilding done surrounding Discworld it is essentially a platform for Pratchett to use to tell jokes with and the idea of exploring it without Terry's very distinctive voice narrating things feels like it's missing the point.

GURPS Prime Directive is good enough for me.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;629519GURPS Prime Directive is good enough for me.

Prime directive is another game that is probably too idiosyncratic to ever be really popular.

Star Trek has never been a really popular gaming property so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that "not-Star Trek" the RPG has limited appeal.

What's frustrating is how close they come in some cases:

WW2
Hellboy
Discworld
Prime Directive
etc...

But instead of giving people what they want (i.e. generic gamble fantasy and sci-fi) they give us awesome rules and products tied to specific niche appeal settings.

If Star Trek can't sell tabletop RPGs, then no wonder it's a D&D world.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;629541If Star Trek can't sell tabletop RPGs, then no wonder it's a D&D world.

It is what it is. Star Trek has never been a particularly successful franchise for tabletop gaming.

Compound that with the fact that Prime Directive is NOT Star Trek and, like I said, it's really not surprising that it's not terribly popular.

Well, we had FASA Trek with its slow character generation and combat and an awesome starship combat game.  Great rules for hard core detail freaks though.

We had Last Unicorn Trek with a book for every series.  Actually I really regret not getting the TOS one.  The rules were supposedly decent.

We had Decipher Trek with broken rules and a lame duck company that didn't stick it out.

I don't quite know what the answer for Trek is.  Honestly Traveller Trek or d6 Trek would probably be the best bet.

For GURPS I think a Single 200 page core book with no esoteric / supernatural powers or game breaking disadvantages in it would be a good start.  Call it GURPS Vanilla.  Now You can pick up any genre source book and plug it in without having to cull the character creation section.

One book fantasy, sf, and action would be okay too.  Maybe even better as you could tailor the selection of abilities.

I have Traveller Prime Directive on order (due out this winter, if at all).  Not expecting much from it, since it will be a 90% reprint of what the D20 and GURPS verions had in them.  No ship combat rules probably.  They want you to buy Star Fleet Battles for that.  And Mongoose has their own Call to Arms already.  We will see.  Sci-Fi RPGs are not as popuar as fairy dust RPGs.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;629559Sci-Fi RPGs are not as popuar as fairy dust RPGs.

Very true.

The only "sci-fi" rpg I can think that really achieved notable popularity was Traveller.

Most other popular "sci-fi" RPGs are science-fantasy.

WEG and then WOTC Star Wars
The new 40k RPGs

etc...

Quote from: Piestrio;629004Yeah, it's less useful.

If feels like it has more mechanics for character building and fewer for actually running the game.

3e lite felt complete, 4e lite feels like a teaser.

Hell, I ran some complete short campaigns using the 3e GURPS lite rules plus a single setting book.

RPGPundit