Clerics are a lower-risk/lower-reward strategy than MUs.

Fighter Lords don't get their due in the common shape of campaigns today, but their sheer toughness should be significant unless the DM's playing with kid gloves and a candy handout for the magicians. If you think they should pack more punch, try something like Weapon Specialization (from UA or AD&D 2E) or Weapon Mastery (from BECMI's "M" or the RC).

Also note the HD boosts -- for everyone except MUs and (oddly?) monks -- in AD&D.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;627325I feel very safe in saying that the vast majority of people who complain that TSR MUs were overpowered also ignored many of those rules that kept the MU in check (like spell components, interruptions, etc).  So you can't exactly blame the game for that one.  That's like saying Paladins are overpowered while ignoring the alignment and behavior restrictions.

Really, I have no idea WTF WotC was thinking when they decided to strip away all of these caster restrictions, and then add a lot more power to them.  It's no wonder you had people complain about power imbalance.

If you use spell components and interruption a MU is useless.

So I would have to agree.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;627325Really, I have no idea WTF WotC was thinking when they decided to strip away all of these caster restrictions, and then add a lot more power to them.  It's no wonder you had people complain about power imbalance.

The other two chief designers thought they'd keep Monte out of their hair by letting him create his spell-caster's dream world?

Quote from: Bill;627641If you use spell components and interruption a MU is useless.

So I would have to agree.

Useless seems strong.

Now I'm heading into unfamiliar territory, but from what I've heard so far, B/X Magic-Users don't sound 'useless' so much as situational and context-sensitive.

Their full potential is highly reliant upon them continuing their spells uninterrupted in combat: they can't move, and they can't get attacked or take damage.  It's not enough to just keep them out of melee; an archer can disrupt a spell, too.

If the spellcaster's in an open plain with no cover, or nobody can keep the enemy monsters off of him, he's going to suck badly.  If they can get the surprise on unaware opponents, or he's kept safe while he casts spells, then he's going to rock.

Quote from: CRKrueger;627303Nah, there's no difference, haven't you heard?  

Eliminating every possible restriction of TSR D&D, layering on skills and Feats for spellcasting, and allowing multi-dipping of classes, had nothing to do with Fighters v. Wizards in WotC D&D.  We've.Been.Told.  

BMX Bandit and Angel Summoner was coded into D&D from the beginning.  Iron Man and Jibba said so, or something.

It's nice that my BMX bandit and Angel Summoner example is still getting airplay.

Like I always said casters in TSR D&D need to be rebalanced. More spells at lower levels less at upper. You can do it with spell points or you can do it with looking at the aquisition of spell slots which basically jumps in AD&D from acquiring 12 spells from levels 1 -7 to acquiring 18 spells from levels 8-15 and those spells being higher level and therefore more powerful.  

I never played B/X so I can just talk to AD&D.
Whereas the figther quickly gains power and slowly their progression weakens thus their curve starts steep and levels off, The caster starts slow and then their power curve steepens drastically (you cna make a case for a J curve I suspect with a 3rd level wizard weker relative to 3rd level fighter than at 1st level) . In AD&D a 20th level figther versus a 30th level fighter will be a contest largely about magic items, yes the 30th level guy will have 40 extra HP (maybe a 25-30% benefit) but they will have the same combat table and saves, number of attacks etc etc...
The opposite is true of casters and a 30th level caster will be far more powerful than a 20th level because of the increased rate of spell acquisition and the level of those spells.
Of course AD&D's sweet spot is c. levels 5-9 so its somewhat moot although that sweet spot I think could be extended to 3rd - 15th if the caster was tweeked and magic items reappraised.

Rebalancing that spell slot progression to give casters a smoother curve I personally think makes them a more usuable class. Of course you won't agree but meh...

Quote from: Libertad;627736Now I'm heading into unfamiliar territory, but from what I've heard so far, B/X Magic-Users don't sound 'useless' so much as situational and context-sensitive.

Their full potential is highly reliant upon them continuing their spells uninterrupted in combat: they can't move, and they can't get attacked or take damage.  It's not enough to just keep them out of melee; an archer can disrupt a spell, too.

If the spellcaster's in an open plain with no cover, or nobody can keep the enemy monsters off of him, he's going to suck badly.  If they can get the surprise on unaware opponents, or he's kept safe while he casts spells, then he's going to rock.

Which leads to scry-port-fry tactics as the obvious way an actual wizard with those restrictions would act if able.

Quote from: jibbajibba;627751Which leads to scry-port-fry tactics as the obvious way an actual wizard with those restrictions would act if able.

Keep in mind that when teleporting has actual risks involved, using it as a default tactic becomes less optimal.

Also, the lack of guaranteed access to relatively cheap wands and scrolls means that utility spells often take actual spell slots.

Quote from: Bill;627641If you use spell components and interruption a MU is useless.

I would disagree with this. MUs were my favorite class to play in older D&D, and my DM used both of these. One of the things I liked about playing MUs, in fact, was keeping track of and having to chase after spell components. My group used to roll their eyes when my MU would invariably be found crawling all over defeated beasties extracting potential magical bits and pieces, muttering to himself.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;627832Keep in mind that when teleporting has actual risks involved, using it as a default tactic becomes less optimal.

Also, the lack of guaranteed access to relatively cheap wands and scrolls means that utility spells often take actual spell slots.

Yes I agree teleporting is not without risk, it was just an example there are no doubt others.

As for utility slots only if the wizard is adventuring in the typical dungeoncrawl/hexcrawl/citycrawl model. If you are a Vancian wizard that lives in a big tower surrounded my flying monkey guards and who ventures forth but once a cycle having prepped themselves upto the eyeballs then its a fine MO.
Remember a typical Vanican wizard has maybe 4 or 5 spells but 2 or 3 insanely powerful magic items (and of course there is no concept of a saving throw) .

Quote from: jibbajibba;627850Yes I agree teleporting is not without risk, it was just an example there are no doubt others.

As for utility slots only if the wizard is adventuring in the typical dungeoncrawl/hexcrawl/citycrawl model. If you are a Vancian wizard that lives in a big tower surrounded my flying monkey guards and who ventures forth but once a cycle having prepped themselves upto the eyeballs then its a fine MO.
Remember a typical Vanican wizard has maybe 4 or 5 spells but 2 or 3 insanely powerful magic items (and of course there is no concept of a saving throw) .

No concept of a saving throw?

What house rules are you using? Are you all that familliar with the spell lists in B/X ?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;627852No concept of a saving throw?

What house rules are you using? Are you all that familliar with the spell lists in B/X ?

Um... I was talking about Vancian wizards as in the wizards that appear in the Dying Earth books. Scry-port-fry is exactly their Modus Operandi, except they prefer to port in someone else to do the actual frying......
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

When we play AD&D high level wizards we start from a Vancian Premise.

Apologies for any failure to communicate that.

Quote from: Sigmund;627836I would disagree with this. MUs were my favorite class to play in older D&D, and my DM used both of these. One of the things I liked about playing MUs, in fact, was keeping track of and having to chase after spell components. My group used to roll their eyes when my MU would invariably be found crawling all over defeated beasties extracting potential magical bits and pieces, muttering to himself.

Spell Components and Interuption. I did not say only spell components.

However, many spell components create huge handicaps for a MU.

Hope your live spider did not die that you have carried around for that spider climb spell.

I love spell componants, but I give a modest bonus for using them instead of preventing spell casting without them. Its the roleplay element of spell components I value, not the loss of spellcasting they can cause.

Spell interruption is the bigger offender. Any idiot can poke a Wizard with a stick and he loses a spell. I have run many, many multi year 1E dnd games, and never used spell interuption as a normal practice.

I find that the limitations of a spellbook and being well rested to memorize spells is plenty without interruption.

Quote from: jibbajibba;627751Which leads to scry-port-fry tactics as the obvious way an actual wizard with those restrictions would act if able.

It makes sense to use those tactics, but as a player and as a gm....soooooo boring

Also, players whine when the gm uses those same tactics.

Quote from: Bill;627862It makes sense to use those tactics, but as a player and as a gm....soooooo boring

Also, players whine when the gm uses those same tactics.

Quite I was merely saying that in a universe where you were an actual magic user with powers of that sort these are the tactics you would actually adopt. Which is what Vance does in his books with wizards with these powers and restrictions.

You would scan the location from your satelite analyze the defenses and weaknesses then send in a remote drone to bomb the crap of it. Or if the location was not accessible to wizard eye - fireball, you would teleport (airdrop) in a precision team with just the right spells and equipment (weapons and tactics) to deal with the enemy in the most effective manner then you would port (evac) the fuck out of there before the rest of the gnolls/orcs (terrorists/Somali millitants) turned up to give you a pasting.