Quote from: jeff37923;625965I said that. I stand by it as well.

well, to be precise, you said "someone who appears to have mental issues" not "jmal has mental issues" which are two very different things.

Quote from: jeff37923;625965The guy who is supremely talented, but can't get off his ass to do what you have paid him to do, even though he has spent your money for the job. To me, James M. is following that exact behavior and has demonstrated his unreliability.

Well, it's been stated before that he's been reliable in the past.  It's not like this is his first gig.  This is kind of an anomaly.  Although it seems the projects he starts he hasn't done a lot of finish when they are personal as opposed to paid.

I do think though that James has talked a little bit about the art and dismissed the business side of things in many of his writings, usually when talking about the ages of TSR--but one thing a lot of fans don't get is that it's the business discipline that keeps things together.

Quote from: jeff37923;625965I said that. I stand by it as well.

From my own amateur fumblings with getting stuff assembled and printed, I have found that the "flakey artist" stereotype is a very real thing. The guy who is supremely talented, but can't get off his ass to do what you have paid him to do, even though he has spent your money for the job. To me, James M. is following that exact behavior and has demonstrated his unreliability.

More generally, the same can be said of numerous other "artistic" types, such as: wannabe rock stars, unknown actors, struggling writers, etc ...

A huge element of narcissism seems to be a common personality trait of such individuals.

Quote from: JRT;625967[me on Gamer Stockholm Syndrome]

But the problem I have with the label is that it assumes that the backers have a problem with that dedication.  Granted, I can see the extreme--but the other extreme is that every project now that's even a little late you could be dismissed like that.

How about this? Every time we see a backer with a grievance, we acknowledge that maybe they really have a grievance and hold off for a bit on protecting the creator. Let's get to the bottom of the grievance first.

Then maybe the claims of Gamer Stockholm Syndrome won't come up so often to bother you.

Quote from: JRT;625967Sadly, lateness is becoming par for the course.  The comic book industry has given up the concept of "inventory stories" because readers would rather have their favorite artist and writer instead of a fill in artist or inventory story.  And I think the RPG market is so small now that people are doing this as side jobs or one-man publishers, so even without the KS involvement, lateness is kind of a norm instead of an exception.

Again, let's try not universalizing this. Kickstarter campaigns deliver on time all the time. Are they somehow magical and immune to industry trends and macroeconomic factors?

It's always been a cottage industry. Why is this project making people so angry?

Quote from: JRT;625967However, I suspect 90% of us are not backers and just being third parties, so we're interested in the debate for the debate, and not because we have a personal stake.

Well, I am now a backer, so my opinion counts. How about you?

Don't know if I'm angry yet. Mostly sad.

Quote from: ICFTI;625970well, to be precise, you said "someone who appears to have mental issues" not "jmal has mental issues" which are two very different things.

Eh, quibbling at this point.

Quote from: econobus;625973It's always been a cottage industry. Why is this project making people so angry?

Well, the key issue is the lack of communication.

As far as non-backer involvement, I really suspect it's because James is a better known figure than a lot of "old-school" creators, and he's taken in a lot more money than they did.  And he's a polarizing figure.  So, I think more people are concerned about this than some guy they never heard of who failed.

That's kind of why this thread is so long...

Quote from: JRT;625978I really suspect it's because James is a better known figure than a lot of "old-school" creators, and he's taken in a lot more money than they did.  And he's a polarizing figure.  So, I think more people are concerned about this than some guy they never heard of who failed.

The more famous someone is, the more enticing of a target they are for criticism.

Quote from: JRT;625978Well, the key issue is the lack of communication.

I like this. This has nothing to do with the industry or when Jim Shooter stopped commissioning fill-in stories at Marvel. It's actually about us, Grognardia and Dwimmermount.

Gamers have a heartbreaking capacity to forgive as long as you keep them in the loop. Keep them feeling like they're part of the process, they will sign away all rights, wait years, literally snatch food out of their own children's mouths and give them to you in exchange for maybe a "playtesters" credit at the end.

That's just how it goes. Okay. Call it what you want.

Neglect them, and that special relationship can implode in some spectacular ways. And now it's happened and we have a chance to learn from it, so everyone can do better next time.

Doing better means not being content to blame Jim Shooter's inventory mandates or a shrinking hobby or the day job. Doing better means taking a hard look at the grievances and where they come from. You just did that. Thanks.

Quote from: JRT;625967Guess arm-chair law is a response to arm-chair psychologists.

The entire internet is a huge giant armchair.  

Quote from: misterguignol;625961This is a forum about elfgames

The logo on the top left of the page tells me this is 'A forum for discussing roleplaying games', and you are currently posting in a subforum named 'Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Main Forum'.

I am afraid you will have to look for those 'elfgames' elsewhere.

Quote from: econobus;625968I think this is part of what makes the "stockholm" metaphor so compelling. At this point, the pattern goes:

1. Disaster at Dwimmermount, news at 11!
2. How dare you label Grognardia, he is an innocent man, a kind man for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Plus creative and innocent and kind.
3. Plus IRWS is an asshole.
4. Kickstarter is good, you're just doing it wrong.
5. Yes, Kickstarter is good. Hooray for gamers!

Exactly.

Quote from: melan;625985the logo on the top left of the page tells me this is 'a forum for discussing roleplaying games', and you are currently posting in a subforum named 'roleplaying games (rpgs) main forum'.

I am afraid you will have to look for those 'elfgames' elsewhere.

fuck!  Where can i go to find a pure elfgame??

Your elfgames are a different hobby, stop trying to corrupt the purity of RPG.

Quote from: econobus;625982Doing better means not being content to blame Jim Shooter's inventory mandates or a shrinking hobby or the day job. Doing better means taking a hard look at the grievances and where they come from. You just did that. Thanks.

Inventory Stories didn't start with Jim Shooter for the record.

To be clear, Econobus, my discussion of lateness is meant to also explain why lateness is tolerated in other endeavors, and why the arts in general has more tolerance of this than your typical things you buy.  And this is more aimed at a few people, like "I run with scissors", who thinks that any late Kickstarter is a crime against nature and that all their backers are demented.

To be honest, I don't excuse the increase in tardiness and I think it's actually lead to things getting worse for the industry.  But I also don't think lateness is an artistic endeavor is akin to other things.  I mentioned comics for a reason:

Going back to the original situation--if James "gave up" his copyright and another person finished it, in an attempt to meet the deadlines--would that be satisfactory to the backers.  Is it just about the money or the promise?  Is the creator important in the equation.  

If Backer X fought to remove James from the creation, would Backer Y have a right to be upset because he'd rather wait for James to complete rather than have another person take it over?

That's where you have a grey area.

Quote from: ggroy;625984The entire internet is a huge giant armchair.  

Truer words were never spoken....