Quote from: econobus;625933I'm a little disturbed myself by people who go out of their way to dismiss the backers' grievances or dissuade them from seeking avenues of redress, so let's call it even.

But I didn't do that.  The problem is, there is a difference with a single fan asking for and getting his or her money back, and taking an action that forces everybody to be involved, which is what a lawsuit does.

And it's more aimed at the GSS "label"--it's the typical BS like "fatbeard", 3tard/4on, or any other argument that tries to dismiss or insult the other side.  I don't dismiss that some backers might have grievances, but don't dismiss the other's who don't and are willing to wait either.

This Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money and that you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.

Quote from: jeff37923;625939you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.

I already said I wasn't going to do one; leave me alone!

Quote from: wmarshal;625907As far as the content it seems to me that it's at least 95%+ done as far as James' work. Maybe Autarch can speak to what else they need from James in terms of content. If the content is done, and James wants to focus on his personal life then he could return those monies budgeted for publication to Autarch and give them permission to publish Dwimmermount. Then James wouldn't have this hanging over him, and I think any lawsuit would then be moot. If he spent that money on himself already rather than keeping it available for the publication of Dwimmermount then he has only himself to blame for any legal difficulties headed his way as a result of that decision.

In hindsight, perhaps Autarch should have opened up a separate new bank account which held the Dwimmermount kickstarter money (in part or in whole) that JamesM could make withdrawals from.  That way, Autarch would have a way of watching what exact amounts of money JamesM was taking out over a period of time.

Quote from: Gib;625941I already said I wasn't going to do one; leave me alone!

....

Quote from: ggroy;625942In hindsight, perhaps Autarch should have opened up a separate new bank account which held the Dwimmermount kickstarter money (in part or in whole) that JamesM could make withdrawals from.  That way, Autarch would have a way of watching what exact amounts of money JamesM was taking out over a period of time.

That's pretty much the definition of Escrow, which in hindsight is what should be done.

QuoteThis Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money and that you should think twice about backing a Kickstarter for someone who appears to have mental issues.

The former is always my philosophy.  

However, there has really never been any indication James has had "mental issues".  Depression can come on suddenly and acutely.  Saying he has "mental issues" is one of the textbook definitions of Libel.  So I really think people should back off of those opinions.

Quote from: JRT;625936I don't dismiss that some backers might have grievances, but don't dismiss the other's who don't and are willing to wait either.

Sorry. I saw you telling a guy who's thinking of suing to "consider what the majority of the backers went through...you shouldn't put it upon yourself to seek justice 'for the group' if you are in the minority" and must have read that as trying to dissuade him from considering all options.

I don't recall wmarshal talking up a class action but could be wrong. Framing his grievance against the public good creates an adversarial relationship that may not actually exist. I'm curious about what motivates that rhetorical move.

Now on your dislike for "the GSS 'label'" (I had to look it up, never seen it abbreviated), I think there's a kernel of truth in the mock diagnosis, kind of like how most of the icons I see around the game world skew toward facial hair and husky builds, fatbeards. Stereotypes take hold as experience provides support.

I do see plenty of "stockholm syndrome" among gamers in the sense that there's a desperate attempt to identify with the interests of someone else, in this case the industry pro instead of the kidnapper. The GSS sufferer will make enormous leaps of logic to justify and excuse the industry pro with whom he identifies: creative is hard, business is hard, we're all just hobbyists, feelings are hard, I would want to be treated in such a way, corporations are evil, this is a labor of love, KS is not a preorder, the majority of the backers seem happy, labels are cruel, it's only fifty dollars apiece, I want it to be good and am willing to wait as long as it takes.

And so on. And that's fine, really. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with defending a favorite industry pro. Just so people always know their options and aren't shouted down by the crowd of excuses when they speak up and say, "I'm not happy here."

Quote from: JRT;625948Saying he has "mental issues" is one of the textbook definitions of Libel.  So I really think people should back off of those opinions.

I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?

Quote from: JRT;625948Saying he has "mental issues"

nobody said that.

Quote from: misterguignol;625950I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?

Kind of a Catch 22 in that if he isn't under extreme emotional distress now, where's the fucking product? And if it's true, it's not exactly textbook libel.

All I really know is that this is trending to be the second-biggest rpgsite thread in history in the next day or so. Clearly it's not a case of a few sour grapes who are jealous of Grognardia's success (forgot that one earlier) and are just trying to cause trouble.

This one is striking a pretty deep chord.

Quote from: econobus;625954Kind of a Catch 22 in that if he isn't under extreme emotional distress now, where's the fucking product? And if it's true, it's not exactly textbook libel.

All I really know is that this is trending to be the second-biggest rpgsite thread in history in the next day or so. Clearly it's not a case of a few sour grapes who are jealous of Grognardia's success (forgot that one earlier) and are just trying to cause trouble.

This one is striking a pretty deep chord.

Oh yeah, no mistake--I'm a backer who feels like he's not going to see a refund or a finished product at this point.  

I just thinking people complaining that Jmal is being libeled should probably take it down a couple notches, you know?

This is a forum about elfgames, not a court of law.  I doubt many lawyer would really be willing to do the paperwork to get something said here onto a docket.

Quote from: jeff37923;625939This Kickstarter proves to me that you should never back one unless you are willing to lose your backing money

Sorta like investing in the stock of a dotcom company back in the late 1990's.  :rolleyes:

(Or for that matter, investing in any stocks in the first place over the last decade or so).

Quote from: JRT;625948However, there has really never been any indication James has had "mental issues".  Depression can come on suddenly and acutely.  Saying he has "mental issues" is one of the textbook definitions of Libel.  So I really think people should back off of those opinions.

Quote from: misterguignol;625950I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?

Quote from: ICFTI;625953nobody said that.

I said that. I stand by it as well.

From my own amateur fumblings with getting stuff assembled and printed, I have found that the "flakey artist" stereotype is a very real thing. The guy who is supremely talented, but can't get off his ass to do what you have paid him to do, even though he has spent your money for the job. To me, James M. is following that exact behavior and has demonstrated his unreliability.

Quote from: misterguignol;625950I think people should back off the legal talk because they're blowing smoke out of their asses, but what can you do?

Guess arm-chair law is a response to arm-chair psychologists.

Quote from: econobus;625949I don't recall wmarshal talking up a class action but could be wrong. Framing his grievance against the public good creates an adversarial relationship that may not actually exist. I'm curious about what motivates that rhetorical move.

Based on what he said, it seems like he's aiming for that.  Normally, as an individual, he's allowed personal cure, which would be a personal refund of his cash.  If he was given that, I doubt he'd have any cause to sue beyond that level.  

QuoteThe GSS sufferer will make enormous leaps of logic to justify and excuse the industry pro with whom he identifies: creative is hard, business is hard, we're all just hobbyists, feelings are hard, I would want to be treated in such a way, corporations are evil, this is a labor of love, KS is not a preorder, the majority of the backers seem happy, labels are cruel, it's only fifty dollars apiece, I want it to be good and am willing to wait as long as it takes.

But the problem I have with the label is that it assumes that the backers have a problem with that dedication.  Granted, I can see the extreme--but the other extreme is that every project now that's even a little late you could be dismissed like that.  

Sadly, lateness is becoming par for the course.  The comic book industry has given up the concept of "inventory stories" because readers would rather have their favorite artist and writer instead of a fill in artist or inventory story.  And I think the RPG market is so small now that people are doing this as side jobs or one-man publishers, so even without the KS involvement, lateness is kind of a norm instead of an exception.

Quote from: econobus;625954This one is striking a pretty deep chord.

However, I suspect 90% of us are not backers and just being third parties, so we're interested in the debate for the debate, and not because we have a personal stake.

Quote from: misterguignol;625961I just thinking people complaining that Jmal is being libeled should probably take it down a couple notches, you know?

I think this is part of what makes the "stockholm" metaphor so compelling. At this point, the pattern goes:

1. Disaster at Dwimmermount, news at 11!
2. How dare you label Grognardia, he is an innocent man, a kind man for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Plus creative and innocent and kind.
3. Plus IRWS is an asshole.
4. Kickstarter is good, you're just doing it wrong.
5. Yes, Kickstarter is good. Hooray for gamers!

Quote from: misterguignol;625961This is a forum about elfgames, not a court of law.  I doubt many lawyer would really be willing to do the paperwork to get something said here onto a docket.

I think we did that one like 40 pages ago. Somebody said it wasn't worth a class action at the time but more recently the antennae seem to be tingling again. And KS creators *are* getting sued into bankruptcy. That's a factor here now.