Quote from: The Traveller;622259One of the rare occasions when gib isn't talking bollocks. Making a megadungeon is easy unless you want to get seriously creative, which most of the graph paper jockeys don't.

That's just not true. Sure, if you just roll room content randomly, write stream of consciousness whatever comes to mind and all, you can get that together relatively easily (though you still have to type all this shit, which requires some stamina some people just don't have, especially when the stuff is boring). I can open a shit restaurant that goes belly up in two weeks relatively easily too. But claiming that writing a mega-dungeon module just takes "a pulse" is a load of bullshit. It takes time, it takes passion (even if what you're passionate about is shit), it takes dedication, work, discipline, etc etc.

People who are saying these kinds of things are either not realizing what they are actually talking about, or are so jaded that they think, like Kevin, that since they write at the kilometer and come up with shit like breathing, then everyone else should feel it's that easy as well. It's not.

Quote from: TristramEvans;622246LOL, and a lot more manhours than you seem to think.

I could publish one by morning. I just go to one of the random-dungeon-level websites, hit "Generate", copy-paste it into an InDesign document for however many pages I have patience to endure, slap some half-assed cover on it, and upload it for $9.99. It would be an absolutely horrible megadungeon, but hey, it's 578 rooms, 12 levels, and 30 pages of single-line room descriptions with a few random adjectives and nouns sprinked in. I'm sure it would be sufficient to fit somebody's definition of a megadungeon.

Publishing to an OSR standard is do-it-in-your-sleep simple. The audience doesn't demand fancy layouts or color interiors or pretty much anything more than two-column functionality. For maps we have abundant freeware resources and for distribution we have the exact same platform that WotC itself is using these days. Anyone capable of giving a damn is capable of producing a product. It's just that far fewer are capable of producing a good product.

If someone asks me "Why don't you do something better, then?" my own answers are either "Because I don't care enough to try", or "Because I have no better ideas and was hoping that this author did". You don't need a parachute to notice that somebody's falling.

Quote from: SineNomine;622261I could publish one by morning. I just go to one of the random-dungeon-level websites, hit "Generate", copy-paste it into an InDesign document for however many pages I have patience to endure, slap some half-assed cover on it, and upload it for $9.99.

I could come up with a catering business selling canned dog food by morning. It's easy. Doesn't mean it's going to fly or be any good. Your comparison is completely stupid, Kevin.

Quote from: The Traveller;622259One of the rare occasions when gib isn't talking bollocks.

You are the ultimate warrior.

Quote from: Benoist;622264I could come up with a catering business selling canned dog food by morning. It's easy. Doesn't mean it's going to fly or be any good. Your comparison is completely stupid, Kevin.

I brought up the comparison because I don't like the implication that publishing RPG supplements is remotely difficult from a technical aspect. I simply cannot become a brain surgeon tomorrow, or start a bank, or hire out as a Mandarin translator. I lack the capital, intellectual or otherwise, to do these things. A cursory glance through OBS' offerings will reveal that there is no such capital requirement for getting an RPG product into print.

If you want to rebuff demands that you make something better before you can criticize a product, then go ahead and rebuff. There are plenty of good reasons why that's not a justifiable demand. But don't imply that the process is on par for difficulty with dealing with city building codes, taking out a small business loan, or managing waitstaff.

Quote from: SineNomine;622271I brought up the comparison because I don't like the implication that publishing RPG supplements is remotely difficult from a technical aspect. I simply cannot become a brain surgeon tomorrow, or start a bank, or hire out as a Mandarin translator.

Likewise, random non-gamer couldn't bring together a role playing game, module or supplement without knowing what these games are in the first place, or do it with any competence whatsoever (like not killing people for a surgeon) without having the slightest idea what they are doing, as the legions of people who DID play and run games for decades and think they know what they are doing to FAIL with their products attest in spades.

You are really wrong on this. You're suffering from a myopia inherited from your specific standpoint as an experienced gamer, competent designer and publisher.

Quote from: Benoist;622273You are really wrong on this. You're suffering from a myopia inherited from your specific standpoint as an experienced gamer, competent designer and publisher.

It's possible, but I'm just not convinced. It's just not a complex or technically demanding physical process to put out OSR-style published products. Sure, creatively it's the devil to do something fresh and useful, but Sturgeon's Law is going to be applicable at any scale. I've just put a great deal of effort towards trying to convince other people to give the process a try, and I'm not a fan of implications that it's some scary or unique-talent-required thing if you want to make up something nice-looking to pass around the net. Hell, the free Spears of the Dawn resource pack I'm putting up next week has ten pages of InDesign document templates for other designers to steal and the whole first chapter as a worked example of their use. Though now that you point it out, it might be worth my time to make up a few more templates to put in there.

This is the golden age of sharing your stuff with the world at large, and I want people to feel confident that the only things they really need are a good idea and a hobbyist's level of dedication.

Quote from: SineNomine;622275This is the golden age of sharing your stuff with the world at large, and I want people to feel confident that the only things they really need are a good idea and a hobbyist's level of dedication.

That's already way more than just "a pulse". Yes, you can get how-tos and advice and support and the community like never before. If you have a solid idea, a passion for what you do, and you are willing to put in the writing and whatever else man hour to bring your baby to other people's game tables, you certainly can. But the idea that just about anybody can do it without effort, dedication, discipline and the like is just wrong.

Fuck this argument, i want to see those templates.

Quote from: Gib;622280Fuck this argument, i want to see those templates.

What kind of templates?

Quote from: SineNomine;622275Hell, the free Spears of the Dawn resource pack I'm putting up next week has ten pages of InDesign document templates for other designers to steal and the whole first chapter as a worked example of their use. Though now that you point it out, it might be worth my time to make up a few more templates to put in there.

......

Quote from: Gib;622289......

Oh okay, those templates. Nevermind. I thought you wanted something else.

Quote from: Gib;622250But so is comparing making a megadungeon to actually doing something hard, like running for public office.

And if I'd done that, I'd agree.

Quote from: Gib;622280Fuck this argument, i want to see those templates.

Should be up in about a week, if the SotD print proofs check out. Honestly, I think I'm going to need that time just to write a set of warnings about how not to use the things. "Please don't load this template with a 90% identical rehash of Moldvay Basic and six pages of your house rules. Please don't engage in an obsessive attempt to replicate TSR's trade dress down to the microscopic level. Please don't use these Illustrator symbols to perfectly replicate B1 except with ascending armor class. Please put something new in here."

Of course, to the extent that these templates really are widely useful these warnings will be completely ignored. Still, I'm confident that the more stuff that's out there, the more good stuff will be among it. I just wish I had the time to learn how to use Scribus- these templates aren't useful to anyone without InDesign CS6, and that's rather costly software.

Quote from: Benoist;622260That's just not true. Sure, if you just roll room content randomly, write stream of consciousness whatever comes to mind and all, you can get that together relatively easily (though you still have to type all this shit, which requires some stamina some people just don't have, especially when the stuff is boring).

Why would it even be in the game if it's boring? Filler is only needed if you're doing it for money and aren't really enjoying your work.

The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway. Even leaving aside the lack of ventilation, accumulation of poisonous gases, the physics-defying subterranean chambers with only a few feet of wall between one room and the next, the questions of how exactly major ecologies have not only survived but flourished in an environment which is home to pretty much nothing in the real world, the sacks of precious metals and mystical items scattered hither and yon, the way a lit torch doesn't suffocate the group within an hour or so, the way that getting lost is never an issue, and so on.

Let's leave all that aside and realise that computers do a better job of the dungeon experience and have for quite some time. To a great extent the first person shooter scene started out mimicking dungeons, with Wolfenstein and Doom, then perfected the art with networking and WoW. Even in the media, underground settings are rarely more than something you have to go through to reach the actual adventure, or a couple of chambers where the final battle happens.

As such the closed-circuit node by node model is perfectly fine in small doses, but dungeons in general are an anachronism.

Quote from: Gib;622267You are the ultimate warrior.

And you are just so edgy.