Quote from: Sigmund;609794Awesome!

Glad you like it!

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Quote from: Black Vulmea;609626If that was the case, then the only way alignment could change would be from magic.

I don't recall the specifics from other editions, but 1e AD&D talks about the need to track character behavior and changing alignment to match.

Alignment reflects what you do, at least in 1e.

The rules contradict this in a number of places though, most specifically in alignment restrictions on races and classes.

Quote from: TristramEvans;612702The rules contradict this in a number of places though, most specifically in alignment restrictions on races and classes.

Is it a contradiction though? Or is it just an injunction in character creation (and in a few cases, like Clerics and Paladins, on the access of powers should alignment change)?

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Quote from: RPGPundit;612928Is it a contradiction though? Or is it just an injunction in character creation (and in a few cases, like Clerics and Paladins, on the access of powers should alignment change)?

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Racial alignment....deserves a ream of posts on its own.  Especially idiotic when a race you meet as an 'encounter' is so one-dimensional.

Quote from: TristramEvans;612702The rules contradict this in a number of places though, most specifically in alignment restrictions on races and classes.

No, alignment still reflects what you character does; alignment restrictions mean there are certain behaviors which are expected of that character in accordance with the class.

Quote from: LordVreeg;612950Racial alignment....deserves a ream of posts on its own.  Especially idiotic when a race you meet as an 'encounter' is so one-dimensional.

Or it means that other races are not like humans.

Quote from: RPGPundit;612928Is it a contradiction though? Or is it just an injunction in character creation (and in a few cases, like Clerics and Paladins, on the access of powers should alignment change)?

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well, I at least certainly have an abrasive reaction to such injunctions in character creation. alignment as a guide for behaviour? I'm fine with that. But as such, but in that case it should be something the player choses without being restricted by their species or profession IMO. Its there that it suggests behaviours are not the defining element of alignment, rather it is impossible to engage in certain behaviours if one is of an alignment, or species, or class.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;612965No, alignment still reflects what you character does; alignment restrictions mean there are certain behaviors which are expected of that character in accordance with the class.

Which is where it becomes disassociated to me, or blurs the line between alignment as an expression of behaviour vs alignment as a deeper motivation.

I would assume that a Dwarf being branded LG by race, uses that as a starting point. That dwarf, pc or npc, is free to do non LG actions until his alignment changes.

Quote from: Bill;613178I would assume that a Dwarf being branded LG by race, uses that as a starting point. That dwarf, pc or npc, is free to do non LG actions until his alignment changes.

So how do you describe a 'bad egg' that was born that way?  Does he stay LG until he commits his first double homicide?

If alignment doesn't predict behavior, at least in general terms, what value does it have?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;613195So how do you describe a 'bad egg' that was born that way?  Does he stay LG until he commits his first double homicide?

If alignment doesn't predict behavior, at least in general terms, what value does it have?

Signifying which team you're playing on in the cosmic battle.

But to the overall thread, sometimes I alternate.  I have no problem with "shades of grey" stuff, but the D&D system isn't really meant to support it.  Evil people are just plain evil a lot of the time.  In practice, most of the bad guys in my games are sick sons of bitches who are a threat to everyone around them.

Mind you, I do offer better incentives to go after villains than "they're orcs!" or "treasure!"  Like that crazy necromancer who's blighting the fields with undead to take revenge against some slight from the King; he's an asshole, you can't appeal to his better nature, and there's a good reason to take him down.

Quote from: LordVreeg;612950Racial alignment....deserves a ream of posts on its own.  Especially idiotic when a race you meet as an 'encounter' is so one-dimensional.

It depends on the race, doesn't it? I mean, if Elves and Dwarves are being portrayed as mostly human in attitudes and behaviours, I would find it a bit disconcerting if they couldn't be any human alignment that they wanted.

But if you have really alien beings (beholders, mind flayers, aboleth, pretty much any extra-planar being, and even more mundane things but with very alien attitudes like Drow), I would think that this is more a characteristic of how inhuman they are, that for them its likely that certain notions or philosophical ways of understanding the world that humans use would be simply incomprehensible.
I have no problem with a tentacled monstrosity from the outer planes not only being ineligible to be Lawful Good, but being absolutely unable to comprehend the very concept of "good".

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Quote from: deadDMwalking;613195So how do you describe a 'bad egg' that was born that way?  Does he stay LG until he commits his first double homicide?

If alignment doesn't predict behavior, at least in general terms, what value does it have?

I discussed how I used it before, already more than once, and how it has no real conflict for me.

An individual character PC/NPC can be anywhere on the 9-alignments. They are an individual, have sentience and conscience, and thus have free will. This can be influenced by racial outlooks and national/cultural outlooks. But unless there's fear of reprisal or something, an individual will express their alignment (their world view, outlook) when they can, overriding race and culture.

A nation or culture alignment will often group towards the racial alignment on the average, but is open to more deviation of expression upon the 9-alignment axes. It, like the racial alignment, is a deliberate broad brush. But the collection of laws and mores will give it a generally assumable outlook. It is also naturally influenced by racial outlooks. However, unless under extreme duress, a culture will express its alignment (viewpoint, outlook) freely against its baser attitudes.

Racial outlooks are given in general a singular alignment out of sheer necessity. It's the simplest first coating of the broad brush. The mental framework leading to the 'hows' and 'whys' of language, tool usage, social organization, etc. is judged here. It often deals with the "lizard brain" lowest common denominator. However, even though it is foundational it can be -- and often is -- overridden by a national/cultural outlook, and naturally an individual outlook as well.

Overall, it's quite easy in my view. I just never found this to be an overly complicated process myself. I think the big challenge for most people is when they think of things as exclusive conditions. But more than one thing can be held as true within a given population at the same time. Just as people can confuse the individual for the statistic, people can confuse the statistic for the individual. Sometimes it can all be represented and thus be correct.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;613195So how do you describe a 'bad egg' that was born that way?  Does he stay LG until he commits his first double homicide?

If alignment doesn't predict behavior, at least in general terms, what value does it have?

If he was 'born that way' it just means he drifted from LG at a birth.

I am firmly in the camp of actions and intent dictate alignment for most sentient beings.

Innate allignment works to a degree with dnd planar cosmology, but I still think a demon or celectial could drift.


Value?

Handy notation; that's about it.

So what motivations do we in fact like in our villains?

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Quote from: RPGPundit;613681So what motivations do we in fact like in our villains?

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*blink* This is vague, please define.

Are we assuming villains who are of evil alignment?

Are we assuming villains who are of chaotic alignment?

What are the setting assumptions that give context?