Quote from: thedungeondelver;612073The Drow were cool as villains.  I know a lot of GMs think the whole "meta-knowledge we're not even telling you" part of game rules is a no-no but the dismissive "Oh, yes, well dark elves don't really exist" throwaway line in the Monster Manual...then BAM! they show up in G2! - really cool reveal.

Absolutely agree. Back then, they were alien, cruel, beautiful and unredeemable - existing in a world where having to treat with Aboleths and Mind Flayers are more familiar to them than their distant surface brethren - worshipping a Lolth more like a spider than an elf.

Evil races exist (among other reasons) to provide the occasional 'oddity' in relation to the rest of them.  Drizz't was a good example of one for the Drow...at first.  The problem to me was that he became overdone and wandered way too far into Mary Sue territory.  But he didn't quite start out like that, unless you consider 'he rebelled and managed to escape' to be Mary Sue, which I find a ludicrous position.

So no, the drow aren't 'ruined' unless you have a bunch of people whose -only- introduction to them is through Drizz't.  They can easily be redone, altered, modified and so on, the way we've been doing with any other source material since televisions were still sold with wired remotes.

It takes an incredible amount to get me to allow one as a PC, though.  They're far better off in the DM's hands.

The whole reason Drow even were created is, I conjecture, that Gygax realized, well after the books were published, that adventurers could easily become wayyyyy more powerful than the monsters. Even the "huge, ancient, red" dragon in the MM isn't all that much considering how it's supposed to be really tough. AC -1 and 88 HP barely lasts 2 rounds against a trio of decent level fighters with comparable equipment.

So, Drow. Packed with PC abilities and classes, a few extra "screw you" abilities like poison and one-way Darkness balls....and magic items just like the PCs have, except they won't profit by looting them.

I don't know if Drow were ever cool, but they were the first glimmer of the game where monsters and players were playing by nearly the same rules, for good or ill.

Quote from: Doom;612172The whole reason Drow even were created is, I conjecture, that Gygax realized, well after the books were published, that adventurers could easily become wayyyyy more powerful than the monsters. Even the "huge, ancient, red" dragon in the MM isn't all that much considering how it's supposed to be really tough. AC -1 and 88 HP barely lasts 2 rounds against a trio of decent level fighters with comparable equipment.
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Not to be nitpicky, but an 11th level fighter still needed an 11 to hit and an 8 or higher to save vs breath weapon; a breath weapon that did 88 hp of damage if you failed, which killed just about everyone.  Most people who even made their save still died.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;612175Not to be nitpicky, but an 11th level fighter still needed an 11 to hit and an 8 or higher to save vs breath weapon; a breath weapon that did 88 hp of damage if you failed, which killed just about everyone.  Most people who even made their save still died.

Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.

K?

That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11.  Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.

No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.

Yeah, a butt naked fighter with 11's is going to have trouble doing it single handedly, which is why I had some qualifiers in there.

Quote from: Looter Guy;612109Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.

The first few were actually pretty fun. I don't blame Drizzt and I dont blame drow. I blame all the players who wanted to be Drizzt and populated the realms with countless Drizzt Do'urden carbon copies and I blame the writers who followed in Salvatore's footsteps (though I havent read his books since Icewindale, he is a pretty cool guy and a very down to earth writer when I have head him in interviews). Once in a while a character that breaks away from the norm like that can be interesting. The problem is, pretty much through most of the 90s the "misunderstood x" became a staple.

Quote from: Blackhand;612180Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.

K?

That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11.  Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.

No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.

Hmm, just curious.  Double spec with 18/00 str is +6/+9, where's the rest?  Also Bastard sword is 2d8, two-hander is 3d6.

One thing I did like about 2e was the bigass dragons.  Hell yeah.

Quote from: CRKrueger;612095As NPCs they can be salvaged if you leave off the lesbian-stripper-ninja-BDSM fetish fuel.

But that's the best part!

Seriously, though, I don't think that the Drow have been "ruined."  Aside from a bunch of Drizz't fanboys, Drow retain their popularity as villains in many D&D games.  Nowadays, they're also a more popular PC choice.  The Drizz't Clone Syndrome has worn itself out, and many Drow PCs I hear about online are more original characters.

Anything that used to be rare and mysterious but is now well-known and common has been cheapened. Moon landings and space shuttle missions became ho-hum, every day affairs that only made the front page of the paper when they crashed.

You can't bring make something mysterious after it's been fully exposed.

Quote from: CRKrueger;612184Hmm, just curious.  Double spec with 18/00 str is +6/+9, where's the rest?  Also Bastard sword is 2d8, two-hander is 3d6.

One thing I did like about 2e was the bigass dragons.  Hell yeah.

He also said mediocre stat scores.  But don't play attention.  BH has shown that he doesn't get caught up in things like factual details.

Also, it should be noted that the MM dragon was statted out long before weapon specialization (let alone double spec) was ever a thing.  If you're gonna play with those add-on rules to your 1e game, also play with updated dragon rules that appeared in various dragon magazines

No, they haven't been ruined, but long-time gamers are tired of them as a concept thanks to overuse.  Let them rest a decade or two.

Quote from: This Guy;612205No, they haven't been ruined, but long-time gamers are tired of them as a concept thanks to overuse.  Let them rest a decade or two.

Agreed.  I'd like to see gnoll and bugbear and hobgoblin culture fleshed out like the Drow were (detailed culture, politics, etc).  I think you could do quite a bit with those three races.

Quote from: Looter Guy;612109Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.

You didn't miss much. I read them a year or two ago, and thought they were middle-of-the-road, at best.

I still love drow as villains, though. If it really bothers you, just make them albino.

Drow still have power as villains, but you need to strip off enough details to put the "WTF" factor back into high gear.  They need to be made mysterious again, so players dealing with them are forced to say "What the @#$% are THESE things?!  I thought that we were fighting drow!"