Quote from: RPGPundit;611514Except in D&D, Dwarves don't get to use magic AND they don't get to craft magic items.

Umm. What version of D&D are we talking about?

If AD&D 1e or 2e, dwarf clerics could do it.

If BECMI/RC, Forges of Power (RC p. 145) as I mentioned above, or dwarf clerics from the Dwarves of Rockhome Gazetteer.

Can't speak for OD&D or Holmes B/X.

Quote from: TristramEvans;611107It would depend entirely on the setting for me. Alot of D&D-esque fantasy goes with the Tolkien-esque view that Dwarves create/craft magic items but don't use magic. However,  outside of the Norse myths Tolkien was drawing upon there's no basis for this in folklore as a whole. Of course, D&D draws more upon Tolkien than it ever did actual folklore or myths, so I'd expect a bog-standard D&d game to have restrictions on Dwarf magic--users, if not banning them outright.

Im with you here

I see this restriction as a failure by OD&D, or at least an unsustainable design choice. There are plenty of dwarven wizards in mythology and literature: Hephaestus, Dworkin, the Nordic smiths...

If you want to design a setting where there are no dwarven wizards, go for it. Doesn't mean there is no room for the opposite. It's just a matter of taste, IMHO.

Rune magic can be simply a visual element for dwarven wizards or clerics: that is to say, dwarves use runes, elves use crystals, etc.

In my own campaign setting, there are dwarven mages. One is pretty much Amanda Waller in a dwarven disguise, working as a royal advisor and secretly running a shadowy organization that employs questionable agents (read: player characters).

Quote from: elfandghost;611114If Dwarves have full access to magic and can be full-on mages, magicians, enchanters etc. then they simply become short, stumpy humans with a bonus to their constitution. It makes their culture seem redundant, their engineering unremarkable and their love of fighting senseless.

I view D&D's limitations on dwarves as an elegant shorthand to convey what makes Dwarves unique. However Dwarves can be distinctly dwarves even when given full access to all that humans can do. Something that GURPS and other free form RPgs have to deal with.

The trick is to focus on the role playing to define what makes dwarves unique leaving the mechanics to define their physical characteristics.

Quote from: estar;611822I view D&D's limitations on dwarves as an elegant shorthand to convey what makes Dwarves unique. However Dwarves can be distinctly dwarves even when given full access to all that humans can do. Something that GURPS and other free form RPgs have to deal with.

The trick is to focus on the role playing to define what makes dwarves unique leaving the mechanics to define their physical characteristics.

Yeah.  My dwarven analogues can cast, but it certainly does not make them human.  Just takes a good gm with a good setting.

Quote from: JongWK;611820Rune magic can be simply a visual element for dwarven wizards or clerics: that is to say, dwarves use runes, elves use crystals, etc.

"elves use crystals"? Do they practice reiki too?

RPGPundit

Quote from: deadDMwalking;611393In Tolkien, 'wizards' we actually see doing anything other than just stabbing people with a sword or being undead are godlings - Gandalf and Saruman.

Thank you! Someone brought up Tolkien pretty early, and if they were being consistent with that they wouldn't allow elf, human, or halfling wizards either. Wizards in LotR are their own race(they look human, but are not), and only a few are even known to exist at all. The other races all had some access to magic, but nothing on the level of an actual Wizard. When they did something truly impressive, it was with the help of strong magic items(like certain rings or the occasional enchanted blade).

Quote from: GeekEclectic;613420Thank you! Someone brought up Tolkien pretty early, and if they were being consistent with that they wouldn't allow elf, human, or halfling wizards either. Wizards in LotR are their own race(they look human, but are not), and only a few are even known to exist at all. The other races all had some access to magic, but nothing on the level of an actual Wizard. When they did something truly impressive, it was with the help of strong magic items(like certain rings or the occasional enchanted blade).

Did Dwarves in Tolkien use magic at all, or did the Elves do it for them?

It has been over 20 years from when I read those books.

As described in the books, the dwarves practiced 'magic', but the efficacy of it could not be verified.  The main example is the spells of protection the dwarves laid on the troll treasure they found - this is also where three elvish blades are recovered including 'Sting'.  

In the Lord of the Rings, the only dwarf is Gimli, and he doesn't practice any magic at all.  

Despite all the folklore of dwarves being master craftsman and/or artificers, the elves, who spring from the same folklore, ended up having those abilities demonstrated in the books.  For example, the elven rope seems to have the ability to untie itself.  Again, however, the actual 'magical nature' is somewhat ambiguous.  Likewise with the cloaks.  

Other items, like the 'Light of Galadriel' are clearly magical as we'd understand the term.

Yeah. And didn't Galadriel possess one of the 3 elven rings created by Sauron? One of the most powerful magical items in the setting. No wonder she could do some impressive stuff.

I like using Dwarven wizards, and see no reason not to. I don't mind if they come across as just a flavor of human. In the setting I've been designing/thinking about for years, dwarves and elves and goblins and orcs are all just as able to have any of the skills and professions as humans, at least potentially. Any restrictions on anything are going to be purely cultural, with exceptions and all. For example, on human culture worships a sun god and of course believes fire is holy and so restricts fire-based magic to their priesthood only. Anyone caught within their lands using fire magic will be put to death by being staked out in the desert under the sun after having their eyes and tongue removed.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;613420Thank you! Someone brought up Tolkien pretty early, and if they were being consistent with that they wouldn't allow elf, human, or halfling wizards either. Wizards in LotR are their own race(they look human, but are not), and only a few are even known to exist at all. The other races all had some access to magic, but nothing on the level of an actual Wizard. When they did something truly impressive, it was with the help of strong magic items(like certain rings or the occasional enchanted blade).

However, the wizards in LotRs do mention humans being capable of magic. They talk about human "conjurors" and "sorcerors". They are vaguely scornful of these human magic-users, but they do say they exist.

Also, Elrond is described as being capable of magic, and if I remember right he also has one of the Elven rings.

Saruman initially believes that the "necromancer" of Dol Guldor is a human.

Yeah but if Saruman and/or Gandalf can barely get a few bigby's hand or light spells between them, what would those conjurers get? Answer: Cheap tricks. Prestidigitation or cantrips at most.

I would really like to see the howls of outrage from gamers if someone went and actually made a LoTR RPG that really reflected how rare and complicated spellcasting magic seems to be in the setting. Because that's also always been one of the things that made me feel like the various LoTR RPGs weren't actually emulating the setting.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;613782Yeah but if Saruman and/or Gandalf can barely get a few bigby's hand or light spells between them, what would those conjurers get? Answer: Cheap tricks. Prestidigitation or cantrips at most.

I would really like to see the howls of outrage from gamers if someone went and actually made a LoTR RPG that really reflected how rare and complicated spellcasting magic seems to be in the setting. Because that's also always been one of the things that made me feel like the various LoTR RPGs weren't actually emulating the setting.

Even in the Simarillion Middle Earth Magic seems to be subtle rather than D&D style fireworks. More about enhancing an object innate "virtue" or enhancing natural effects. However it seems to be pervasive in that everybody has some type of "magic" draw on like the hobbit's ability to move unseen by bigger folks.

Quote from: RPGPundit;613782Yeah but if Saruman and/or Gandalf can barely get a few bigby's hand or light spells between them, what would those conjurers get? Answer: Cheap tricks. Prestidigitation or cantrips at most.

I would really like to see the howls of outrage from gamers if someone went and actually made a LoTR RPG that really reflected how rare and complicated spellcasting magic seems to be in the setting. Because that's also always been one of the things that made me feel like the various LoTR RPGs weren't actually emulating the setting.

RPGPundit

An intereting exercize is to watch a fantasy film or read a fantasy novel and figure out a way to emulate its magic specifically. I tried that with excaliber bout a year ago,just  watching it a bunch of times and pausing everytime merlin or morgana used magic. Obviously they dont have to contend with the balance issues rpgs do, but you can go in some very interesting directions doing this.