Quote from: TristramEvans;611096Well, first off, no magic shops. Unless we're talking about something like Leiber's Bazar of the Bizarre, I find them artificial and video-gamey.

I might have a few magic shops in major cities where there are low level charms and whatnot - the cast-offs from old adventurers and where budding wizards make some money on the side.

Certainly no `50% off Vorpal Swords until Saturday` kind of shops.  Getting that sort of stuff on the open market would involve some interesting auctions in secret (and likely dangerous) locations...just don`t as where they got the stuff...

Well first off reduce the level of magic and gold. If Pc have colelcted less magic items they will expect less magic and won't go looking for magic shops. Don't give them lots of gold change the paradigm becuase its illogical.

If you are going to go the old D&D route and have lots and lots of both gold and magic you need to enforce the reality. Now I don't mean enforce the rather daft D&D rules round training and so on cos they are stupid I do mean the reality of having a cart load of old coins. What would you do if your wages each month were given to you in coins.
The PCs have a number of choices -

• Hide or bury it somewhere
• Find some sort of 'bank' to put it in if such things exist
• Buy something of great value - a castle, farm, etc
• Donate it
• Spend it on whores and coke

now buying something of great value for a lot of PCs is a pain in the arse. If you were the sort of guy that at 16 took your dad's old longsword/spell book/holy symbol and went out into the world seeking adventure you are probably not the sort of person that wants to settle down at 23 and worry about the kitchens, the leaking drains, the supply of corn for the winter... you can of course hire people to do that for you.

most PCs in our games use their coin to buy gems as a portable currency. we have had guys setting up companies and trading places even inns but always passing the running over to NPC henchmen.

If you get rid of the 'gold standard' and give PCs xp for other actions, killing stuff using skills, completing personal objectives (my prefered option) and plot related stuff if that fits wth your game play, then the issue goes away and the economy starts to make a lot more sense.

I agree with the procuring of land grants and building a keep or whatnot. There is a book that goes into minute detail in what is needed or required for such an undrtaking, and it will not only drain the PCs of much of their wealth it will also infuse the local economy.

Check out Lord Flataroys' Guild to Fortifications.  It has gone under the radar of most gamers because it was a splatbook of the "mocking parody" HackMaster 4th edition.  However, there is absolutley nothing humorous when it comes to builing your keep, and I find this book priceless when it comes to setting up a church, keep, estate or even a mage tower.

Quote from: griffonwing;611189Check out Lord Flataroys' Guild to Fortifications.  It has gone under the radar of most gamers because it was a splatbook of the "mocking parody" HackMaster 4th edition.  However, there is absolutley nothing humorous when it comes to builing your keep, and I find this book priceless when it comes to setting up a church, keep, estate or even a mage tower.

HackMaster 4e has a stronghold-and-domain endgame sourcebook? Mind=blown :eek:

Seriously, if it wasn't for the cutesy jokesy tone, these guys could've invented the OSR a few years in advance.

Quote from: The Butcher;611228HackMaster 4e has a stronghold-and-domain endgame sourcebook? Mind=blown :eek:

Seriously, if it wasn't for the cutesy jokesy tone, these guys could've invented the OSR a few years in advance.

Unfortunately, the "over the top" humor was mandated by contract with WotC. The new HackMaster, which you can get the Basic PDF book for free, retains some of the humor, but the over-the-top parody is gone.  I have read other reviews that have called it a "true" update to DnD 2e, what 3e should have been, and I can't find a reason to disagree with them.

OK, sales pitch over.  As for the Fortifications book, there arent many reviews, but you can get it fairly cheaply on ebay. Also, it should be mostly system agnostic.

Quote from: griffonwing;611236Unfortunately, the "over the top" humor was mandated by contract with WotC. The new HackMaster, which you can get the Basic PDF book for free, retains some of the humor, but the over-the-top parody is gone.  I have read other reviews that have called it a "true" update to DnD 2e, what 3e should have been, and I can't find a reason to disagree with them.

OK, sales pitch over.  As for the Fortifications book, there arent many reviews, but you can get it fairly cheaply on ebay. Also, it should be mostly system agnostic.

I am Hackmaster illiterate.

The stuff I like about 2E are specialist wizards, allocatble thief skills.

But 2E is missing classes like Monks.

So does hackmaster have all of that, and hopefully cleric domains?

Quote from: Bill;611239I am Hackmaster illiterate.

The stuff I like about 2E are specialist wizards, allocatble thief skills.

But 2E is missing classes like Monks.

So does hackmaster have all of that, and hopefully cleric domains?

Well, for starters, there is no cleric class. No monk class, No druid class.

Before you say anything, there is a whole chapter devoted to clerics.  There are 43 gods in the Tellene pantheon, and as such, there are 43 clerics.  No domains, and no cleric spell levels.  Every cleric class is different, based upon the god they worship. Different spell lists, different abilities. One cleric might gain a weak healing spell at 1st level, while others gain access to that spell at level 7 or 8..or never. No more cookie-cutter clerics.

The new PHB has 14 clerics listed, enough to cover all 9 alignments (which also have been reworked/reworded). There are 2 that follow hunting/beast gods and have animal shape powers (aka druids).  There is a cleric thief (akin to the god Risk), and the future splatbook will fill out the remaining gods, which should also include a cleric of the Powermaster, aka, your monkish class.

These classes (druid and monk) are basiclaly followers of a specific belief system, and so having them as clerics just feels right to me anyway.

Also, there are 3 dual classes.  Fighter-Mage, Mage-Thief, and Fighter-Thief, all else are individual classes.  A future splatbook should also be coming to expand on the mage classes, ie specific schools of training.

Quote from: RPGPundit;610876How do you figure out ways to creatively make use of this money?

I don't.

I like it when the adventurers are wealthy and influential. The more powerful they become, the more powerful the rivals who are likely to take notice.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;611254I don't.

I like it when the adventurers are wealthy and influential. The more powerful they become, the more powerful the rivals who are likely to take notice.

That, in itself, makes for a good campaign.  Being rich and influential and confronting the movers and shakers of the game world will make for campaign that is long-remembered.

Quote from: J Arcane;610882IME it's usually inevitable for groups to want to at least go into business for themselves after a certain level of wealth.

Yes, well, this is something that compounds the problem.  Players will often want their characters to invest in things that will ultimately make them more money; it doesn't get rid of PC wealth, it has to increase it.

Dominions and the like are things that some players will only want if it makes them either richer or more powerful; barring that, they won't bother, they'd rather just sit on their 1 million gp.
They can understand that there's risk involved in investment, but that means they'll want to micromanage it, causing lengthy periods of downtime in the actual play where you have to deal with a single player's vast business empire while everyone else sits there bored.
They have the expectation too, that landowning is something that should make you a lot of money, when historically that wasn't really the case, or the point.

Let me note here, that I'm playing devil's advocate.  I also have a lot of players who are great at getting that money is there to spend and not always on things that will make you more mechanically powerful, and that there's a lot of benefits money can get you besides either stat bonuses or profits.

RPGPundit

Quote from: griffonwing;611236Unfortunately, the "over the top" humor was mandated by contract with WotC. The new HackMaster, which you can get the Basic PDF book for free, retains some of the humor, but the over-the-top parody is gone.

Unfortunately, so is the mechanical relationship to D&D.  They got it wrong both times, for different reasons.

RPGPundit

Quote from: griffonwing;611248Well, for starters, there is no cleric class. No monk class, No druid class.

Before you say anything, there is a whole chapter devoted to clerics.  There are 43 gods in the Tellene pantheon, and as such, there are 43 clerics.  No domains, and no cleric spell levels.  Every cleric class is different, based upon the god they worship. Different spell lists, different abilities. One cleric might gain a weak healing spell at 1st level, while others gain access to that spell at level 7 or 8..or never. No more cookie-cutter clerics.

The new PHB has 14 clerics listed, enough to cover all 9 alignments (which also have been reworked/reworded). There are 2 that follow hunting/beast gods and have animal shape powers (aka druids).  There is a cleric thief (akin to the god Risk), and the future splatbook will fill out the remaining gods, which should also include a cleric of the Powermaster, aka, your monkish class.

These classes (druid and monk) are basiclaly followers of a specific belief system, and so having them as clerics just feels right to me anyway.

Also, there are 3 dual classes.  Fighter-Mage, Mage-Thief, and Fighter-Thief, all else are individual classes.  A future splatbook should also be coming to expand on the mage classes, ie specific schools of training.

That actually sounds good.

Now this is based on 1E/2E right? I ask because I read somewhere that there is a version of Hackmaster that does not use dnd as a base?


Would you say Hackmaster could replace 1/2E but retains the flavor?

Quote from: Bill;611542That actually sounds good.

Now this is based on 1E/2E right? I ask because I read somewhere that there is a version of Hackmaster that does not use dnd as a base?


Would you say Hackmaster could replace 1/2E but retains the flavor?

It has nothing at all to do with 1/2e.  That was HackMaster 4th, parody of dnd using a licenced 1/2e system.  This is simply HackMaster (although its nicknamed 5th or advanced) and uses its own system.

But could it replace 1/2e or other old-school games? Most certainly.  It has the same feel of old-school hacking.  True 3d6 die rolls straight down the line, and there are no dump stats. INT and DEX determine your attack, CHA and Looks determine your starting honor, etc.. For those used to DnD, it does take a couple sessions to get used to. No rounds or turns in combat, its all second by second using weapon reach to determine first attack and weapon speed from then on, opposed combat rolls, dice penetration (explosion) for most rolls (combat and skills), armor and shields make you easier to hit but offer damage reduction and much more.

Some reviews by me and others can be found on RPGGeek and RPGnet, RPGnet, RPGnet that go into much more detail. But regardless of of the reviews, the Basic pdf can be downloaded for free so you can have a chance to read through and play some included pregens to get a feel of whether you want to buy the game or not.

Or, you can head over to the HackMaster forums and ask any questions. The developers (Dave kenzer, Brian Jelke, Jolly Blackburn, and Steve Johannson) are constantly posting, so you can get information straight from the source.

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Another way to handle rich PCs. Relatives. Cousins, aunts, and others who find out about the wealth and come to mooch or scam some of the money. Family can be the worst.

This may not be the most popular bit of advice, but I'll go ahead and say it regardless - start entirely from scratch. Have an honest talk with your players about the abusive amount of coin in the game, dump it and start over with a better economic model. Put on your big boy/girl GM pants and get creative.

You don't necessarily need to go full-bore Middle Age/Renaissance economics, but here are several books that may help bridge a better model into your tabletop game:

• A Magical Medieval Society
• Grain Into Gold
• HARN
• GURPS Low Tech
• GURPS Fantasy

But, if you wanted to take the low road you could have a high-level party simply teleport in, delayed blast fireball their hoard and teleport out. Or, scry to find the player's hoard and rob them blind. Use the same tactics players employ to evade carefully-lain plots and subvert plans with creative spell utilization.

Quote from: Bill;611542That actually sounds good.

Now this is based on 1E/2E right? I ask because I read somewhere that there is a version of Hackmaster that does not use dnd as a base?


Would you say Hackmaster could replace 1/2E but retains the flavor?

I posted a reply yesterday that answered your questions, but it was flagged as requiring mod approval. I assume it was because of links to reviews and other websites.  Anyway, I sent the same reply to your inbox.