Quote from: Lynn;609818Closely related to this, and the question of alignment is insanity. If a character "goes insane" by means other than a temporary spell effect and commits an evil act as a result of the special moment, are they evil?

Define. This is too vague. All I have is "besides a temporary spell" clause.

How long is the insanity?

How deep is the insanity?

What is the response to the criminality/cruelty afterwards?

Part of alignment is cognizance, which separates Characters from Creatures like unaligned animals. Cognizance involves choice, thinking beyond instinct. If there is no thinking about choice, even obviating your own personality "auto-pilot" (a.k.a alignment), then there is no alignment to the action.

(Edit Clarifying Note: I view the idea of Free Choice to be available but not always consciously used. Life's extremely complicated and busy, the time for choices nigh-infinite. And frankly we just don't have the time to really think of all of our options each and every time.

Thankfully we have a remarkable ability to self-program automated responses so as to free up brain power to work on other things. We do this for motor coordination, social circle modulation of language, etc. One of these automated programs is World View -- and our (moral) response to the World from that View. I like to call this automated program: Alignment.

However, we do have Free Choice in crafting our automated programs. And further, we can adjust our automated programs as we continue to live. So even though we subconsciously revert to automated programs during common moments of choice, a conscious embrace of such judgment empowered the automated response. Thus our alignment is a cognizant act -- Free Choice -- regardless if we consciously use it or subconsciously fall back upon it.

Unconsciousness however is notably different than consciousness and subconsciousness. Insanity or true magical enslavement would qualify in my mind as unconscious.)

Further, a breach of code in a moment of passion may be excused. Particularly so if the situation was not consciously self-set up to trigger one's own loss of control (putting yourself deliberately in harm's or temptation's way). Heck, even a regular lapse or two in your alignment doesn't change your outlook on life immediately.

What does matter is what you do afterwards when you regain cognizance, with regards to knowing your aftermath. Lack of contrition for lapses, or even for lapses during blackouts, speaks of a developing shift of one's internal world view. That is something that involves cognizance and thus can be "measured" along the alignment graph.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;609856It would help if you stop thinking of as either/or. Divination magic doesn't replace investigation and in-character interaction - it's simply another tool used by the players.

I don't think of it as either or. Divination either does replace invesigation if the spellks actually work, or, if the divination spells are very limited provide clues that you can get without spells.
 
Btw, 'roleplaying' isn't 'talking in-character.' Everything you choose for your character to do is roleplaying, including casting spells, swinging a sword, sneaking through shadows, or jumping out of a window into a moat.

I never said roleplay was talking in character. I consider roleplay to be everything the characters do and percieve in the setting.

In-character interaction and investigation can't automatically "do the same," unless the referee's a complete crapsack who can't misdirect his players for shit.

Never said it would be automatic.
I am a master at misdirecting players. That comes easily to me.I can do that with or without detect alignment spells. I just find the detect alignment to be useless and offer nothing to the fun factor of the game.


Using magic to peer into men's minds and souls isn't exactly unheard of in FANTASY, which begs the question, why the hell are you playing D&D when it seems you'd rather be playing GUMSHOE?

I enjoy spells like ESP, charm person, etc...that certainly give glimpses into mens minds. But they are very different animals than an alignment label spell.
No clue why you would think I like Gumshoe. The one shot I played of it convinced me it was some odd type of railroady game concept. Don't know much about it though.

I have played and gmed most versions of dnd for over 30 years and had  a blast. I must be doing something right.

Quote from: Elfdart;609876I'm amused by the idea of characters going around casting Detect Evil/Good or Know Alignment on total strangers -as if anyone would just submit to it. Casting any spell on a conscious, sentient creature without their permission would almost always be taken as a hostile act, and responded to accordingly. It's not like they know what spell they're about to receive.

I have not seen many players try this in the open, but quite a few that 'duck out of sight'....cast....duck back into sight if the spell has a duration.

not quite as bad but still seems silly to me.

Quote from: Bill;609958I have not seen many players try this in the open, but quite a few that 'duck out of sight'....cast....duck back into sight if the spell has a duration.

not quite as bad but still seems silly to me.

That technique is not applicable to 2e Know Alignment.

Range is 10 yards. Range, as clarified, requires "spells are centered on a point visible to the caster and within the range of the spell." Further "spells can be cast through narrow openings only if both the caster's vision and the spell energy can be directed simultaneously through the opening." Then gives the comparison: arrow slit is OK, peephole is not. (2e PHB, p.129)

Also, Casting time is 1 round. Spell directly states caster "must remain stationary and concentrate on the subject for a full round." Which in 2e a round equals 1 minute. (2e PHB, p.206)

There'd have to be special circumstances to a) fulfill range req. b) fulfill casting time req. and c) have the target remain within those parameters until cast. Possible, but generally used under a discreet or empowered situation (confessional, job interview, espionage, interrogation, etc.). It's for playing a very different style of D&D many people are used to.

For example, in Birthright or Lankhmar it might be downright critical.

Besides 'know alignment', there are also various detect spells; detect good, detect evil, etc.  I've known PCs to scan the crowd with a variety of detects.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;609967Besides 'know alignment', there are also various detect spells; detect good, detect evil, etc.  I've known PCs to scan the crowd with a variety of detects.

Detect Evil doesn't work that way on regular human/oids in 2e (and seemingly 1e as well), as we've already established.

Quote from: Bill;609957I enjoy spells like ESP, charm person, etc...that certainly give glimpses into mens minds. But they are very different animals than an alignment label spell.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Opaopajr;609966That technique is not applicable to 2e Know Alignment.

Range is 10 yards. Range, as clarified, requires "spells are centered on a point visible to the caster and within the range of the spell." Further "spells can be cast through narrow openings only if both the caster's vision and the spell energy can be directed simultaneously through the opening." Then gives the comparison: arrow slit is OK, peephole is not. (2e PHB, p.129)

Also, Casting time is 1 round. Spell directly states caster "must remain stationary and concentrate on the subject for a full round." Which in 2e a round equals 1 minute. (2e PHB, p.206)

There'd have to be special circumstances to a) fulfill range req. b) fulfill casting time req. and c) have the target remain within those parameters until cast. Possible, but generally used under a discreet or empowered situation (confessional, job interview, espionage, interrogation, etc.). It's for playing a very different style of D&D many people are used to.

For example, in Birthright or Lankhmar it might be downright critical.

Invisibility, audibel glamor, illusions, etc..can sometimes make casting in plain site easier.

Quote from: Bill;609974Invisibility, audibel glamor, illusions, etc..can sometimes make casting in plain site easier.

One step closer to the spherical cow and the Thunderdome!

"Casting a detect alignment spell in a town can be taken as invasive and offensive."
"Well, invisibility!"
"Casting while invisible makes you visible."
"But... greater invisibility!"
"Ok what level is this guy and what spells has he got memorized?"
"Well he would obviously have greater invisibility memorized, everyone does"
"Maybe not, that depends on the situation, doesn't it?"
"What you want to try it? THUNDERDOME!"

Quote from: Benoist;609985One step closer to the spherical cow and the Thunderdome!

"Casting a detect alignment spell in a town can be taken as invasive and offensive."
"Well, invisibility!"
"Casting while invisible makes you visible."
"But... greater invisibility!"
"Ok what level is this guy and what spells has he got memorized?"
"Well he would obviously have greater invisibility memorized, everyone does"
"Maybe not, that depends on the situation, doesn't it?"
"What you want to try it? THUNDERDOME!"

Thunderdome I get, but

What is 'spherical cow?'

Quote from: Bill;609989Thunderdome I get, but

What is 'spherical cow?'

Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

The Alexandrian using the concept in an RPG-related context: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2434/roleplaying-games/on-the-importance-of-spherical-cows

QuoteAmong the favorite games of the Armchair Theorists is the Extremely Implausible Hypothetical Scenario. The most common form is, “If we analyze one encounter in isolation from the context of the game and hypothesize that the wizard always has the perfect set of spells prepared for that encounter, then we can demonstrate that the wizard is totally busted.”

Let’s call it the Spherical Cow Fallacy: “First, we assume a spherical cow. Next, we conclude that cows will always roll down hills and can never reach the top of them. Finally, we conclude that adventures should never include hills.”

Quote from: Benoist;609990Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

The Alexandrian using the concept in an RPG-related context: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2434/roleplaying-games/on-the-importance-of-spherical-cows

Hmmm....point being that much of what we beat to death on the internet is not actually a probelm in actual play?

Quote from: Bill;609994Hmmm....point being that much of what we beat to death on the internet is not actually a probelm in actual play?

Yes. Basically, the more discussions about anything in a role playing game being BROKEN or a problem or whatnot start going into hyper-specific theoretical scenarios that somehow "prove" this or that is busted, the more likely you are in fact in total la-la-land talking about spherical cows. Like all the discussions I've seen ever about the "fighter versus wizard" thing, most discussions about "holy game balance", and so on, so forth.

This discussion here, when you start piling up the conditions, e.g. "he casts detect alignment, but he's got invisibility cast too (and nobody noticed him casting that either). In fact no, greater invisibility! And... he's level 8! And ... etc etc", maybe in fact you're just shooting for the spherical cows and detect alignment isn't such a "problem" for games when you're using it in actual role playing situations.

Or you could have a different type of game, Bill, where roleplaying sets up the circumstance needed to cast the spell more 'safely.'

For example, in a city cloak and dagger campaign, one player talks to the mark in the pub across a shared table. Meanwhile the Know Alignment caster is sitting with the rest of the party and stranger NPCs at a table across from the mark, facing his back. Cast surreptitiously as your party stirs up the room. If save succeeds and mark looks behind, try to look innocuous and play it off... etc.

A lot of effort, yes, but still powerful. Roleplaying other ways, as you say, can help. But a lot of it involves taking an NPC at their word, which can lead you into problems. Or it involves a lot more doubting and espionage, which can take much more time. Spells like Know Alignment are just one happy shortcut solution for parties that have it.

Not that how you play is wrong. It just shows how I (we) play is also not useless. A tool for one may not be right for another perhaps, but a tool generally has value in its own milieu.

Quote from: Opaopajr;610000Or you could have a different type of game, Bill, where roleplaying sets up the circumstance needed to cast the spell more 'safely.'

For example, in a city cloak and dagger campaign, one player talks to the mark in the pub across a shared table. Meanwhile the Know Alignment caster is sitting with the rest of the party and stranger NPCs at a table across from the mark, facing his back. Cast surreptitiously as your party stirs up the room. If save succeeds and mark looks behind, try to look innocuous and play it off... etc.

A lot of effort, yes, but still powerful. Roleplaying other ways, as you say, can help. But a lot of it involves taking an NPC at their word, which can lead you into problems. Or it involves a lot more doubting and espionage, which can take much more time. Spells like Know Alignment are just one happy shortcut solution for parties that have it.

Not that how you play is wrong. It just shows how I (we) play is also not useless. A tool for one may not be right for another perhaps, but a tool generally has value in its own milieu.

Might be some miscommunication here.

I have played for years and years, with or without detection of alignment.
Quite capable of using it or discarding it.

I have no issues with the act of casting a spell.

I do intrigue, investigation, etc.. all the time.

I dissagree about the usefullness of detecting alignment and evil, and I dissagree about if the presence of such spells actually makeing the game more fun.

Its a shortcut that detracts from roleplay, in my opinion. I prefer interacting with things over the quick label tag. Key word there is prefer.

I am not saying you personally can't have fun with detecting alignment.

I am not saying how you play dnd is useless. If what you do is fun, there is no problem.

I do freely admit I am not a RAW guy.

When I do 1E dnd I houserule Initiative, Weapon vs armor type, Spell components, Psionics, probably other stuff as well.

I do not consider any rpg I have seen, to be perfect as written or somehow inviolate.

I make changes that make sense to me.