Quote from: CRKrueger;609601We always viewed alignment in terms of the cosmology of the setting, the Planes.  Alignments are really Outer Plane concepts expressed in the reality of the Middle Plane.  Any outsider (Demon, Devil, Solar) will detect as it's alignment because as a creature from that plane it is infused with it's energy, and is a type of avatar of the Planes principles.

We never used Detect Alignment spells as ESP.  What the Detect Alignment spells did was detect emanations from the Outer Planes, so a non-sentient sword could detect as evil.  A human being however, would generally not detect as evil, however, high level priests, or mages who summoned and made pacts with outsiders would.

Now some heinous acts would detect as evil, but that really requires a cosmology where a man committing evil (like a BTK type killer) is not doing so because he's fucked in the head, he's doing it because he's been influenced by an outsider or spirits.

Most people don't think about the cosmology of their world enough to really decide the interaction between spirits and human souls.  Instead we get a Western Social Sciences view with magic slapped on because Tolkien.

There is a point at which, the selfish uncaring bastard crosses the line to something else.  His soul becomes debased to the point where he becomes a beacon to evil spirits who influence him even further and make him a monster who rules orcs and goblins, summons and deals with demons, and Detects as evil.

Games with a strong spirit world focus like Werewolf: The Apocalypse do this kind of thing better then D&D, but in the games we played Alignment was a lot more complex and nuanced then "Team Jersey".

This right here is how I use alignments in any D&D games I run these days. I hopefully will be running a one-shot for my eldest step-son and his buddy right after Christmas and will be using either ACKs or S&W Complete and this is exactly how I will interpret alignment for that game. Humans and other sentient Prime Plane beings are too complex for detection spells to nail down their "team", but extra planar critters are so infused with the alignment's "essence" that the detect spells will "ping", so to speak. Kinda like a radiation detector. In that game, Paladin's (I bring them up again due to the detection issue) will be created by their deity specifically for combating extra planar and undead critters. I've been watching Supernatural so Paladins, and to a lesser extent good clerics being "monster hunters" is an idea that is appealing to me at the moment Really, alignment and the inclusion of "objective evil" is a tool, and like any other it can be embraced, or discarded depending on the aims/goals/desires of the players. I am living proof that it can even be embraced for certain styles of game, and discarded for others, even using the same system.

Quote from: RPGPundit;609623In Arrows of Indra there are three alignments: Holy (someone who has the favor of the gods), neutral (the majority of people), and Unholy (someone who has the disfavor of the gods due to extreme violation of religious laws/taboos).  
The Virakshatriya (holy warrior, the closest equivalent to a paladin) has the power to detect if someone is Unholy.  This does in fact tell him something very important in the context of the game's setting.

RPGPundit

Awesome!

Quote from: Drohem;609627This is an important point, I think.  Back in the mid-80s when we played 1e AD&D the DM tracked character alignment and enforced any changes as a result of character actions.  A good cleric slaughtering orc babies willy-nilly would find a cold, empty reception in the morning when he prayed for his spells.  As a player, you had to live with that kind of stuff and you just dealt and moved on with the game and character.  Now, it wouldn't be a complete blindside in our groups at least since the DM usually gave out warning hints which usually came in the form of a question like "are you sure you are going to take that action?"  These days it seems like players would shit their pants if you, as a GM, told them that their character has shifted alignment and must atone to regain status and favor in the god's, or church's, eye.

Very much this.

Quote from: Bill;609762That is close to how I handle planar beings in dnd. My issues with alignment are more in regards to beings that are more mundane.

Just to preface Bill, you can run your games the way you want, there is no "right way", and if this works for you rock on brother. However, I think you might be throwing out the baby with the bath water re: alignment. There's a world of usefulness between "alignment is absolute and everyone has to belong to and be recognized as a member of one of the "teams"" and "I'm throwing alignment out completely". It's a tool like any other in your arsenal and can be tailored to work how you want it, as I've described in my various posts in this thread. I personally find it useful as a short-hand, and I think if you step back and take a look at how it might be useful in that context I'm thinking you might find a use for it as well. Still, if it really irks you, I'll not say you're wrong Keep on rolling dice brother

Quote from: Sigmund;609796Just to preface Bill, you can run your games the way you want, there is no "right way", and if this works for you rock on brother. However, I think you might be throwing out the baby with the bath water re: alignment. There's a world of usefulness between "alignment is absolute and everyone has to belong to and be recognized as a member of one of the "teams"" and "I'm throwing alignment out completely". It's a tool like any other in your arsenal and can be tailored to work how you want it, as I've described in my various posts in this thread. I personally find it useful as a short-hand, and I think if you step back and take a look at how it might be useful in that context I'm thinking you might find a use for it as well. Still, if it really irks you, I'll not say you're wrong Keep on rolling dice brother

I have played for years both ways. I have come to prefer less alignment detection.

I do use it as a shorthand.

I have tailored it to how I want it

I appreciate the advice though; it is always good to have other peoples ideas as a reality check.

Quote from: Bill;609781I dissagree that it is usefull. Explain to me the usefulness it has, compared to interacting with the npc with roleplay. I am essentially asking how use of the spell enhances game play when roleplay can do the same.

In my games it can be used to reveal whether a given entity is or might be "possessed", an extra-planar or undead critter in disguise (ala shape-shifting or illusion), or otherwise infused somehow with negative or extra-planar evil energy. It also is a tool to reveal one possible facet of the nature of magic items or magically energized places.

QuoteExactly. It's useless.
I prefer to have the motives and nature of npc's revealed through roleplay.

I don't find it to be entirely useless, just one among many tools.

Quote from: Opaopajr;609783Uh, having a general preconception of someone and then having to live through interactions with said person tends to create dynamic social challenges.

To know someone's alignment and see them do something that you interpret to be out-of-character causes cognitive dissonance. It could be a genuine break from one's alignment. It could be a ploy to... XYZ (entrap, keep guessing, etc.). Or it could also mean there's unknown factors, perhaps ones that make such choices "make sense" from that alignment. You know something's up, but you don't know what.

The fun is the half-knowing. It's a detective game, while also being cloak and dagger. The knowledge is useful because it gives contextual outlines to possible future motives, but it doesn't give a good picture of a singular event. The joy is that it gives PCs pause to doubt the NPC's actions and their own PC's assumptions at the same time.

I thought it encouraged a more fleshed out world myself. Now you know someone's alignment, you can guess some of their behavior. But you'll be stumped occasionally. Do you a) doubt your opinion of them, b) doubt their motives, c) doubt your knowledge of the situation?

Sounds like fun stuff to me, but whatever.

Very much this too This is exactly how I like to use it. To relate it to the OP, I usually use a mix of both relative and absolute evil, depending on the nature of the critter/being in question and so like many many other tools in the PC's arsenal, it's usefulness via detection magic varies greatly, which is what makes it so fun for me. The players in my games know that while it might provide some useful info, it rarely tells the whole story. It's one piece of the puzzle.

Quote from: Lynn;609786This is one (very interesting) reason why people don't go entirely nuts when they detect a different alignment.

Evil people can do acts that appear good or right or just.

A Lawful character can be predictable and trustworthy. Something worthy of consideration: Would a Lawful Good character rather travel with a Lawful Evil character than a Chaotic Good character? Or even better, would a Lawful Evil character prefer the company of a Lawful Good character over a Chaotic Evil or even Neutral Evil character?

Truly good people have little or no capacity for doing really dirty, evil deeds - or maybe they have extremely strong wills that allow them to resist what evil thoughts they have. Evil people can for the most part appear and be good, but they carry around one or more evil character flaws. No matter how good everything else, those evil character flaws can end up sinking them.

I do think its easy to show differences in "good" opinions. Character culture can really come to play there. That's where you get those elf vs dwarf conflicts.

Absolutely. I played a LE knight in my last birthright campaign as a player, and he was very much like a feudal samurai. He valued the social hierarchy, and respected his station and the station of others, but had no respect for the sanctity or welfare of those beneath his station. He also had loads of ambition related to advancing his station, and was not above using less savory means of accomplishing that, to a point. In his mind, there were rules to the game, and he never broke those rules, but would bend them and use them to his advantage. He was also very loyal to those he viewed as his peers and to those he viewed as hit "lords". Since he was landless, basically a ronin, his "lord" was the leader of the PC party, and anyone who paid them to accomplish a goal. He was also fearless and would not hesitate to put himself in harm's way to help or save his friends. In other words, he was very much like man of the knights in Game of Thrones/SoIaF. He would gleefully kill CE creatures and felt good about doing so, and of course vastly preferred hanging out with LG or even NG or CG characters... who wouldn't really? He'd argue with and have little respect for CG characters, but he'd still rather spend time with them than NE or CE folks. He viewed himself as a good guy.

Quote from: Bill;609797I have played for years both ways. I have come to prefer less alignment detection.

I do use it as a shorthand.

I have tailored it to how I want it

I appreciate the advice though; it is always good to have other peoples ideas as a reality check.

Rock on brother

Closely related to this, and the question of alignment is insanity. If a character "goes insane" by means other than a temporary spell effect and commits an evil act as a result of the special moment, are they evil?

Quote from: Lynn;609818Closely related to this, and the question of alignment is insanity. If a character "goes insane" by means other than a temporary spell effect and commits an evil act as a result of the special moment, are they evil?

No, but they lose all their Karma points.

Quote from: Lynn;609818Closely related to this, and the question of alignment is insanity. If a character "goes insane" by means other than a temporary spell effect and commits an evil act as a result of the special moment, are they evil?

Depends on the particular context, on a case by case basis. A paladin going insane might do some awful things and could feel guilt, and thus seek redemption. A thief dominated into giving his gold to the Church doesn't make him good. And so on.

I think that in general, people try to think of alignments way too much in general terms, with clear cut actions - boundaries and the like, rather than just relaxing and judging/refereeing situations as they come up in actual play.

Quote from: Bill;609781Explain to me the usefulness it has, compared to interacting with the npc with roleplay.

It would help if you stop thinking of as either/or. Divination magic doesn't replace investigation and in-character interaction - it's simply another tool used by the players.

Btw, 'roleplaying' isn't 'talking in-character.' Everything you choose for your character to do is roleplaying, including casting spells, swinging a sword, sneaking through shadows, or jumping out of a window into a moat.

Quote from: Bill;609781I am essentially asking how use of the spell enhances game play when roleplay can do the same.

In-character interaction and investigation can't automatically "do the same," unless the referee's a complete crapsack who can't misdirect his players for shit.

Using magic to peer into men's minds and souls isn't exactly unheard of in FANTASY, which begs the question, why the hell are you playing D&D when it seems you'd rather be playing GUMSHOE?

I'm amused by the idea of characters going around casting Detect Evil/Good or Know Alignment on total strangers -as if anyone would just submit to it. Casting any spell on a conscious, sentient creature without their permission would almost always be taken as a hostile act, and responded to accordingly. It's not like they know what spell they're about to receive.

Quote from: Elfdart;609876I'm amused by the idea of characters going around casting Detect Evil/Good or Know Alignment on total strangers -as if anyone would just submit to it. Casting any spell on a conscious, sentient creature without their permission would almost always be taken as a hostile act, and responded to accordingly. It's not like they know what spell they're about to receive.

Even if they do know what spell is being cast, folks will react negatively. Worse than going through someone's emails because you dont trust them.