Quote from: Thalaba;609245What's your preferred reason for someone acting evil? The Devil made him do it? He was born evil? The Contessa's dog bit him? Something else?

This will end well.

:popcorn:

Quote from: Blackhand;609249How about he's just fucking mean.  That's my preferred reason.

Because.

And I guess he's mean because he's nasty and he's nasty because he's evil.

I think this changes the question from 'How do you like your evil' to 'Do you want you NPCs to have depth'. Personally, I like characters in all media to have a certain amount of depth, but I acknowledge that that might not be for everyone.

Quote from: The Butcher;609251This will end well.

:popcorn:

Why is this controversial? It's a relatively straightforward question. I'm hard-pressed at the moment to think of a reason for someone to be evil other than social constraints or GM fiat, but if there are some good ones I'd like to add them to my toolbox.

Note that I'm not questioning Pundit's distaste for people making excuses for someone behaving badly. I'm not interested in excuses either, but I am interested in reasons because I think that nothing brings a setting alive more than NPCs with depth.

For myself, I believe that we are personally responsible for our actions.  While we might understand what drove someone to 'evil', that doesn't excuse it.  So, no 'justification', but I do like an 'explanation'.  Maybe someone was just 'born evil', but usually, they have a better motivation than that in my games.  Usually the worst villains are the ones that ultimately have a lofty or even worthwhile objective, but the methods are far too horrendous.  

The druid that dreams of all people living in peace and harmony with each other and the natural world and decides that the best way to achieve that is to cut the current population by 80% is a great villain.  It's easy to agree with his object, but not his method.  This also helps explain why he has lackeys.  Some of them support the ideal but don't realize how far he'll go to achieve it, others will look forward to the advantages that they might personally enjoy in a more 'limited' society.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;609259For myself, I believe that we are personally responsible for our actions.  While we might understand what drove someone to 'evil', that doesn't excuse it.  So, no 'justification', but I do like an 'explanation'.  Maybe someone was just 'born evil', but usually, they have a better motivation than that in my games.  Usually the worst villains are the ones that ultimately have a lofty or even worthwhile objective, but the methods are far too horrendous.  

The druid that dreams of all people living in peace and harmony with each other and the natural world and decides that the best way to achieve that is to cut the current population by 80% is a great villain.  It's easy to agree with his object, but not his method.  This also helps explain why he has lackeys.  Some of them support the ideal but don't realize how far he'll go to achieve it, others will look forward to the advantages that they might personally enjoy in a more 'limited' society.

I agree with this. A explanation doesn't have to justify an act. And while a villain may be a product of his environment to a degree, in the context of a game or even in fictionwhat makes a villain a villain, is how they choose to deal with that situation, what they choose to become.

Quote from: Thalaba;609256Why is this controversial? It's a relatively straightforward question. I'm hard-pressed at the moment to think of a reason for someone to be evil other than social constraints or GM fiat, but if there are some good ones I'd like to add them to my toolbox.

Note that I'm not questioning Pundit's distaste for people making excuses for someone behaving badly. I'm not interested in excuses either, but I am interested in reasons because I think that nothing brings a setting alive more than NPCs with depth.

Because it opens up the ages-old "nature vs. nurture" can of worms.

I dislike the idea that people are not in control of their choices, and that they exist and behave merely at the whim of a multitude of unseen, impersonal factors. I do not deny that circumstances, social and otherwise, play a huge role in human behavior, and in real life I constnatly try and frame people's actions, however seemingly stupid, against the context of the lives they've led, under circumstances not always of their choice. In-game, I actually enjoy it when PCs are left wondering whether they themselves could have taken the same path as the antagonist they're up against.

However, in real life as well as in most of my games, I feel that the acts of individuals are not entirely shaped by these vast, faceless forces. I think that ascribing important choices to outside factors, in detriment of one's own moral compass, dilutes responsibility (and in-game, cheapens the idea of personal agency, and robs both sides of any given conflict of its pathos). Personal agency is a big deal in most of the games I run. I like exploring free will, and choices, and consequences, and what-ifs. I like my villains to have a shot at redemption, and my heroes to be corruptible.

While I enjoy a little fatalism in my fiction, and occasionally even in my games (even though I find the idea of a preset "destiny" is horribly difficult to emulate in-game), generally speaking, I feel the very best sessions and the very best NPCs arise out of the interplay between the circumstances dictated by the game world, and the character's (PC or NPC) personality and set of choices.

Here's hoping (1) that this made some sense, (2) didn't offend anyone (apologies if it does) and (3) doesn't derail this thread into a gaming-irrelevant wankfest.

I don't often look for "reasons" for npcs or monsters being evil, because most of the time knowledge of the "reasons" for individuals being evil would be irrelevant. Main villains have more depth of course, but I don't think that's unusual for anyone. To try to rationalize why the vast majority of antagonists are evil in any more depth than a general "just because" is a waste of time IMO. The detail will only be useful if the information would become available and have some sort of utility for the player characters. Especially for FRPGs, adding "moral dilemmas" to every potential violent encounter is tiresome and counter-productive. It would cheapen the tool and become very boring IMO. All the PCs need to know is that the orcs (or whatever) will try to kill them on sight, so killing them back is just a good idea. Occasionally I'll throw an exception at them and it becomes meaningful because it's the exception rather than the rule.

Quote from: Thalaba;609256Why is this controversial? It's a relatively straightforward question. I'm hard-pressed at the moment to think of a reason for someone to be evil other than social constraints or GM fiat, but if there are some good ones I'd like to add them to my toolbox.

Note that I'm not questioning Pundit's distaste for people making excuses for someone behaving badly. I'm not interested in excuses either, but I am interested in reasons because I think that nothing brings a setting alive more than NPCs with depth.

Well, there I ajm in agreement.  I also despise racial evil.  Cultural forms are also pretty silly, though what is evil to one culture may be normal to another.

Quote from: LordVreeg;609268Well, there I ajm in agreement.  I also despise racial evil.  Cultural forms are also pretty silly, though what is evil to one culture may be normal to another.

This links back to pundits thread on slavery. It is odious by definition but in a society where it is the norm is owning a slave evil? The answer is usually that the good guys treat their slaves well whereas the bad guys abuse them, but what about a good guy that is harsh with their slaves until they are trained like you would be to a horse or a dog? Can you objectify a sentient creature like that and still be good? Note i said sentient creature, its common to kill orcs without hestitation would it be possible to regard all lizardmen as a slave race, or all halflings?

I have often wondered how intelligent an alien race would need to be before we wouldn't consider eating them.... As smart as a dog? A whale? A chimp?  Would breeding aliens as smart as dogs for food be evil? How would it look if you were a third alien race smarter than us?

So evil is tricky on the margins. I believe that evil can only be a conscious thought. So you have to at some point had a choice and chosen the 'evil' path. Now you can be violent, savage, canibalistic, insane even without being evil. You can be irredeemibly savage as well but i don't think you can be truly evil without making a conscious choice.

Quote from: Thalaba;609255And I guess he's mean because he's nasty and he's nasty because he's evil.

I think this changes the question from 'How do you like your evil' to 'Do you want you NPCs to have depth'. Personally, I like characters in all media to have a certain amount of depth, but I acknowledge that that might not be for everyone.

Why?

 In 'real life' often people don't have "depth'.
There is a reason some people are called shallow.

There are plenty of folks who choose to do evil things because they want to, or enjoy it in some fashion (heck, a few 'get off' on doing evil)

Even on a small scale there are plenty of men and women who enjoy spreading divisive rumors about those in their circle of aquaintances just to watch the after-effects. Take that type of personality and turn the dial on their style up to 10 or '11' - and you get sociopathic and psychopathic killers with no remorse to them.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;609293Why?

 In 'real life' often people don't have "depth'.
There is a reason some people are called shallow.

There are plenty of folks who choose to do evil things because they want to, or enjoy it in some fashion (heck, a few 'get off' on doing evil)

Even on a small scale there are plenty of men and women who enjoy spreading divisive rumors about those in their circle of aquaintances just to watch the after-effects. Take that type of personality and turn the dial on their style up to 10 or '11' - and you get sociopathic and psychopathic killers with no remorse to them.

- Ed C.

But ed a true sociopath has no concept of good or evil. So almost by definition can't be evil any more than an autistic kid that kills a cat because it is making too much noise is evil.
So really evil people can't just be insane they need to have deliberately selected evil and they can't just be selfish that would be a weak definition that includes everyone driving SUVs and not sharing their appartments with the homeless.

Real people's alignment fluctuates moment to moment.

Quote from: Bill;609315Real people's alignment fluctuates moment to moment.

I actually thinknif you sometimes do evil you are basically evil..... Now maybe you can seek redemption and stop being evil but if you cut back to say only being evil on mondays you are probably still evil.
Likewise if someone believes in rules and order or freedom and lacknof order they probably always do even if the freedom guy tends to obey the parking rules to save on getting his car towed and the law and order guy occassionally does photocopying at work

Quote from: jibbajibba;609331I actually thinknif you sometimes do evil you are basically evil..... Now maybe you can seek redemption and stop being evil but if you cut back to say only being evil on mondays you are probably still evil.
Likewise if someone believes in rules and order or freedom and lacknof order they probably always do even if the freedom guy tends to obey the parking rules to save on getting his car towed and the law and order guy occassionally does photocopying at work

Are you good if you sometimes do good?

What if you do both?

Also, not sure where to draw the line. Is selfish evil?

Is an asshole an evil person?

Quote from: Bill;609334Are you good if you sometimes do good?

What if you do both?

Also, not sure where to draw the line. Is selfish evil?

Is an asshole an evil person?

I've read essays that claim the essence of moral evil is selfishness.  Therefore, a truly selfish person is evil.

You can be an asshole and be a good person, however.  You're just a dick about it.  I'm pretty sure I fall into this camp.