Quote from: Libertad;606873My reason for not including Adventurer, Conqueror, King in the Other category was that I heard people say that it was based off of the B/X rules of D&D.

I'll check out the Radiance RPG later.  The thing with d20-based RPGs is that a lot of them just use the rules to create all sorts of settings.  A retro clone, in my view, is an RPG attempting to emulate the feel, rules, and themes of a certain edition of D&D.

Added Crypts & Things to the list.

Quote from: RPGPundit;607343I disagree. Having reviewed it, while it certainly has innovations and isn't JUST a clone, its very much based on the RC.  If anything LotFP is better qualified to be moved to "miscellaneous", its a further deviation from the main body of old D&D rules than ACKS.

RPGPundit

Fair enough. Having played both ACKS and the original B/X, I would never call ACKS a clone; more like a mutant offspring. There's a lot of mechanical difference between the two.

Quote from: Bobloblah;607497Fair enough. Having played both ACKS and the original B/X, I would never call ACKS a clone; more like a mutant offspring. There's a lot of mechanical difference between the two.

I'm familiar with BECMI by way of RC, and I feel ACKS would be better described as a variant ("transgenic"?) BEC or "E14 RC" (to borrow from "E6", as D&D 3e capped at level 6 is often referred to).

I haven't really run a comprehensive side-by-side compariosn, but I've checked a few details (e.g. prices for everything from a battle axe or a lantern, to a war galley or a portcullis) and it's a pretty solid match with the RC.

Oh, and this thread reminds me that I should really pick Crypts & Things one of these days. Or perhaps Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.

In an ideal world I'd get both, but AS&SH is horribly expensive to get via mail down here. Maybe in PDF...

Not that I don't already own more D&D than I can shake a stick at.

Two more for the Other category:

Woodland Warriors is a Redwall/Secret of N.I.M.H./Mouse Guard adaption of OD&D.

Fantasia is not a retroclone, but a generic RPG with a very AD&Dish feel (like Wayfarer in the OP, or Palladium Fantasy, or The Arcanum).

Microlite 20 is a stripped-to-the-bare-minimum version of D&D3 that spawned a whole library of tweaks, some of which cloned earlier versions of D&D (Microlite74 is mentioned in the OP).

Quote from: The Butcher;607505I'm familiar with BECMI by way of RC, and I feel ACKS would be better described as a variant ("transgenic"?) BEC or "E14 RC" (to borrow from "E6", as D&D 3e capped at level 6 is often referred to).

I wonder what ever happened to E6.  At one time there was a push to build a set of feats to make the feat accumulation approach work but it seemed to lose stream.

Quote from: Votan;607512I wonder what ever happened to E6.  At one time there was a push to build a set of feats to make the feat accumulation approach work but it seemed to lose stream.

Too bad. It was a pretty cool idea. My players really like the vibe of it in play.

Quote from: The Butcher;607505I'm familiar with BECMI by way of RC, and I feel ACKS would be better described as a variant ("transgenic"?) BEC or "E14 RC" (to borrow from "E6", as D&D 3e capped at level 6 is often referred to).

I haven't really run a comprehensive side-by-side compariosn, but I've checked a few details (e.g. prices for everything from a battle axe or a lantern, to a war galley or a portcullis) and it's a pretty solid match with the RC.

So, if the price list is the same, it's a match? I know that's not what you're saying, but it just seems like a strange yardstick to me. The differences to me are in a lot of the basic rules of the game.

The classes are different. The races are different. The spellcasting is different. The combat rules are different. The domain rules are different (arguably one of the best parts of the game). How different does it have to be before it's not RC or B/X? It's clearly inspired by those games, but to my eyes it's also clearly not the same game.

Other clones like LL, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Dark Dungeons, etc. strive to emulate, or "clone," a specific version of the game under the OGL. ACKS doesn't really do this.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, as the games don't need to be pigeonholed in this fashion to be enjoyed. Arguing about this would feel like an online screaming match about Star Trek canon.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;607346Also, there is no "Hackmaster 1st-4th editions and Basic".  The "Hackmaster 4e" is a meta-joke; there was no HM 3 on back.  It's Hackmaster "5e" and Hackmaster Basic.

So there's only 5th Edition and Basic?  Or 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 5th Edition, and Basic?

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;607511Two more for the Other category:

Woodland Warriors is a Redwall/Secret of N.I.M.H./Mouse Guard adaption of OD&D.

Fantasia is not a retroclone, but a generic RPG with a very AD&Dish feel (like Wayfarer in the OP, or Palladium Fantasy, or The Arcanum).

Microlite 20 is a stripped-to-the-bare-minimum version of D&D3 that spawned a whole library of tweaks, some of which cloned earlier versions of D&D (Microlite74 is mentioned in the OP).

I'll include the first and third entries, then.  Thanks!

Quote from: RPGPundit;607343I disagree. Having reviewed it, while it certainly has innovations and isn't JUST a clone, its very much based on the RC.  If anything LotFP is better qualified to be moved to "miscellaneous", its a further deviation from the main body of old D&D rules than ACKS.

RPGPundit

I own the free version of LotFP, but since I don't have the OD&D rules, I do not know where it's deviated.  Specifically what changes has it made which would merit its move?  Or is this just for comparison, and the entry's location is fine as is?

Quote from: Bobloblah;607600So, if the price list is the same, it's a match? I know that's not what you're saying, but it just seems like a strange yardstick to me. The differences to me are in a lot of the basic rules of the game.

Which is why I admitted upfront that I hadn't run a thorough side-by-side comparison. In broad terms, though, I get the feeling that there's more addition (new stuff) than revision (actual change to the rules).

Quote from: Bobloblah;607600Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, as the games don't need to be pigeonholed in this fashion to be enjoyed. Arguing about this would feel like an online screaming match about Star Trek canon.

I don't give a shit about labels either.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;606951I would also point out Backswords & Bucklers, which is an Elizabethan-inspired variant of Swords & Wizardry.

One of my favorite variants to come out of the OSR.

The list also needs Flying Swordsmen, for games set in fantasy China.

Added Backswords & Bucklers, and Flying Swordsmen to the list.

Swords & Wizardry variants seem to be popular, so I gave them their own category.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;607346Also, there is no "Hackmaster 1st-4th editions and Basic".  The "Hackmaster 4e" is a meta-joke; there was no HM 3 on back.  It's Hackmaster "5e" and Hackmaster Basic.

Quote from: Libertad;607601So there's only 5th Edition and Basic?  Or 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 5th Edition, and Basic?

The only editions are "4th Edition" (published in 2001) and the later Hackmaster Basic (not built on a D&D engine, published 2009) and Hackmaster 5E/Advanced (also not built on a D&D engine).

Hackmaster 1E through 3E are fictional games in the comics world of Knights of the Dinner Table.  I think they roughly correlate to 0D&D (HM 1E), 1st Edition AD&D (HM 2E) and 2nd Edition AD&D (HM 3E).  But they are only references in a comic book.  When Kenzer got the license for the AD&D engine and wrote the first real Hackmaster game, they called it "Hackmaster 4th Edition" to carry over the Knights of the Dinner Table connection.

Thank you for the explanation.  I'll be sure to include this in the list.

Dungeon World without a doubt needs to be removed from that list.  A Retro-clone is something that attempts to clone an older version of D&D in some fashion or another.  Dungeon World isn't anything remotely close to that in any way shape or form.

I can create a game that seems kinda like D&D by taking certain mechanics from Traveller, Torg, or WEG Star Wars, but that is not a retro-clone.

You basically need a Retro-But Not Clone Category(which is where a lot would fit in like Wayfarers and F:tA!).  BTW, Dungeon World wouldn't fit into that either.  There's also absolutely nothing Retro about it.

Quote from: EOTB;607667The only editions are "4th Edition" (published in 2001) and the later Hackmaster Basic (not built on a D&D engine, published 2009) and Hackmaster 5E/Advanced (also not built on a D&D engine).

Hackmaster 1E through 3E are fictional games in the comics world of Knights of the Dinner Table.  I think they roughly correlate to 0D&D (HM 1E), 1st Edition AD&D (HM 2E) and 2nd Edition AD&D (HM 3E).  But they are only references in a comic book.  When Kenzer got the license for the AD&D engine and wrote the first real Hackmaster game, they called it "Hackmaster 4th Edition" to carry over the Knights of the Dinner Table connection.

Edit: NVM, I see who you were replying to there.