Does all this extend to Austrians? Because we have a couple of Austrians (a father and son expat duo) in our gaming group; and I have to say they are the least "storytelling" people I've ever seen.  Dudes are both powergamers to the max. Son always wants to play "dark" characters with lots of magic items who don't follow the rules (though all this is forgivable, in his case, he's 15). Dad (who is 50 and has no excuse) basically always plays himself as a wizard, and while avoiding some of the more sophomoric aspects of his son's style, pretty much sees the game as a contest he has to win.

They're great guys, but pretty much nothing like the picture you paint of the German scene here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;605863But to be clear, is it the case that this style  of play is a cultural thing? That is, there's nothing inherent in the  rules of DSA that oblige this sort of play?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Settembrini;605620(...)The DSA-culture has a railroading-supportive baseline.(...)

Quote from: Roderick;605906Yes, in my limited experience it is a german cultural thing.(...)

It's interesting to notice then, that apparently this German cultural thing is almost naturally adopted by Belgian roleplayers who pick up DSA. So apparently it *is* inherent to the game, if not in the rules per se.

Settembrini, another thing I've noticed about DSA-players not from Germany, is that they ascribe to the game a superior status relative to other RPGs and are often averse to playing anything else. Would you say this is also typical of DSA-culture in general?

Quote from: Settembrini;605620Not representative? N= 2297!

From what choosen group of people? How can n be representitive if you dont have an exactly predefind target group for wich you are using the survey.

Another question is, if the questions are choosen right. So obviously you dont care because i cant see a clear thesis or another main goal on which bases the questions are defined.

Quote from: Settembrini;605620'Nuff said.

All in all you have not understood the arguments brought forth by people in this thread and move goalposts all the time.


I break it down for you once more:

The DSA-culture has a railroading-supportive baseline. That is pervasive and statistically as well as qualitatively proven countless of times. Quite clearly it is so pervasive as to inform what many Germans, Mr. Nebelherr included, perceive as what actually consitutes RPGs as pastime.

Think about it, perhaps people that play extremly reailroading games like this games. Perhaps this RPGs might even be that way because there is a majority of people that love to play in that specific way. I have seen no study that tried to figure out how people play, but it is absolutly possible to play TDE the way you want to play it. You can write your own adventures or enrich smaller campaigns with your own adventures, there is no TDE-Police. If some groups like to play differently and follow stricly the path, than let them play their game.

The point is, that i belive it is a great RPG and you can have a lot of fun with it. I have already explained why i think that if you have another opinion so be it. Your comments show you fascist attitude towards people with other opinions. I mean seriously you telling me that you are some kind of roleplaying elite and TDE is a evil game? Why because there are players out there playing in a way you dont like. TDE Aventuria might have railroading elements and a Metaplot, but TDE has different settings like Myranor or Dark ages.

Quote from: Settembrini;605620You specifically have yet to rise above the primordial mud from which you budded. Thus your arguments reinforce everything others have said about the fallacies rising from that peculiar Gerkman viewpoint on RPGs.
This obviously leaves you puzzled, but makes further argumentation relatively circular...

Once again you have to insult me, very classy.

On the other hand, we had a couple of guest players from Hungary once, who totally played this style now that I think about it. they seemed completely confused at how we did things here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;606117It's interesting to notice then, that apparently this German cultural thing is almost naturally adopted by Belgian roleplayers who pick up DSA. So apparently it *is* inherent to the game, if not in the rules per se.

Settembrini, another thing I've noticed about DSA-players not from Germany, is that they ascribe to the game a superior status relative to other RPGs and are often averse to playing anything else. Would you say this is also typical of DSA-culture in general?

This is proven scientific fact, the linked survey and all other surveys show that DSA-fans often exclusively play DSA and know the smallest number of other systems. And the damning part is that they have strong opinions on these other games from no experience...

The claim to superiority of DSA is quite difficult to understand, though. It claims superiority via small-minded-megalomania, this "kleinkarierter Größenwahn" permeates through everything written for the game. They have a full range of phrases and standing dictums that are mindlessly repeated without any reflection or reality check about other games. The claim is a weird mixture of DSA being "not to cold, not too hot, just right!" and at the same time being perfect for very "deep" play. And if you challenge DSA's ability to this or that, the defense is that is not a hyper specialized monstrosity, but "just right". This is pretty funny, as DSA is the most dogmatic and specialized monstrosity that has a sizable audience...

@Pundit: with sample size 2 and people being ExPats, it is hard to say. Austrian roleplayers in general do DSA just the same way from my limited experience.

Quote from: Nebelherr;606173Once again you have to insult me, very classy.

Says the guy who calls the other guy bringing reasonabler, valid arguments a fascist...

Please, crawl back into the woodwork you came from, fanboy!

Quote from: RPGPundit;606384On the other hand, we had a couple of guest players from Hungary once, who totally played this style now that I think about it. they seemed completely confused at how we did things here.

RPGPundit

Clearly not part of Melan's crew!

The Hungarian national character is very different from the German one so I would be surprised if the same play style is predominant.

Quote from: Phantom Black;606507Says the guy who calls the other guy bringing reasonabler, valid arguments a fascist...

Please, crawl back into the woodwork you came from, fanboy!

Seriously? reasonable, valid arguments? Arguments like "DSA is evil", yeah right, thats what people call reasonable...

I said that he has a fascist attitude and i am right. I tried to discuss with you guys, but you are obviously not able to argue in a civilized manner. So i am done with this. For me you are just pathetic.

Seems to me a German wouldn't be so cavalier about a word like "fascist."

Ok, still haven't had this really answered, so I think I'm asking it in the wrong way.

Take The Enemy Within campaign for WFRP1.  It has a definite plot, some people have called it railroady, however, there is so much world detail in the modules that you can abandon the plot 100% and the whole damn thing is still very useful.  It is so detailed, that even if you do follow the plot, it's infamous for derailing itself with the aspect of the trading ship rules in Death on the Reik.

So, are these railroad modules for DSA similar in that they are extremely useful for fleshing out the world if you toss out the entire metaplot and use them for sandbox details?

Not really, as some of them even heavily contradict already published sourcebooks. And some sourcebooks are so ridiculous in their meticulous details.
There's literally a sourcebook that's about trading guilds and how to handle trade ingame, but instead it has pages of description on varied strains of cabbage ...

Quote from: Fiasco;606831Clearly not part of Melan's crew!

The Hungarian national character is very different from the German one so I would be surprised if the same play style is predominant.

I'd certainly expect it to be quite different...

RPGPundit

Note that hungary has MAGUS, which I am told is just dominant as DSA and also fosters enimity towards D&D. The peculiars are surely different, though!

Quote from: CRKrueger;606979Take The Enemy Within campaign for WFRP1.  It has a definite plot, some people have called it railroady, however, there is so much world detail in the modules that you can abandon the plot 100% and the whole damn thing is still very useful.  It is so detailed, that even if you do follow the plot, it's infamous for derailing itself with the aspect of the trading ship rules in Death on the Reik.

Added: For instance, Shadows over Bögenhafen is not a railroad. There is a string of events that is most probable (and the module is written in that order) but it is a city adventure with lots of things to do and discover. Also, the end is not predetermined. Bögenhafen can become a hellhole of the characters fail.
(It's another matter that this does not seem to have an effect on the rest of TEW. It's the other side of the railroad coin if the actions of the players don't have any consequence regardless if they succeed or not.)

QuoteSo, are these railroad modules for DSA similar in that they are extremely useful for fleshing out the world if you toss out the entire metaplot and use them for sandbox details?

There are virtually no sandbox details in DSA modules. Worse (and that is my personal criticism of DSA, not the metaplot or railroad per se), the introduction of each module lists a slew of other publications that a GM needs to cross-reference; from the regional source book the module is set in, to other modules that have events that lead up to the current situation, to other modules that feature a major NPC, to magazine articles or even novels that have background info, some of that not even in print anymore!
You have to have a master degree in Aventurica to use those modules.

That, combined with master degree GMs at conventions that insist on proper portrayal of Aventurian tropes, kills DSA as an entry-level RPG.

TEW metaplot vs. DSA metaplot:

The Enemy Within has a very loose "metaplot". The books are basically stand alone modules (with a huge amount of source material above and beyond any plot, like the town of Bögenhafen or life on and at the river Reik, plus the bona fide sourcebook on Middenheim). The modules are strung together in a haphazard way. And TEW was criticized for that.

The Aventuria metaplot is planned long in advance. There are one or two events or regions that are in the focus in any given year.

If there are still inconsistencies (as Phantom Black said) that's due to writers writing about their pet Mary Sue NPCs or regions, sometimes including setting-changing material that they have no intention to follow up.

A famous case, from a few years ago:
Michael Masberg wrote an adventure, published in the anthology "Orkengold". In that adventure one of the Aventurian goddesses was reborn in physical form (something that contradicts everything in Aventurian mythology).
(That even the book editor Daniel Simon Richter didn't catch it and didn't communicate any of that to the core editorial team of TDE is another matter entitely.)
So when the book was published a major shitstorm broke loose.  
Another adventure was written to retrofit the situation ("Der Mondenkaiser"): no, it was not the true goddess, just a shard of her personality, like an avatar.

In closing, the DSA modules are more like Dragonlance than The Enemy Within (which is not surprising as DL was at its peak when the DSA metaplot got in full gear). DL didn't contain sandbox info as well. (When I ran DL I had to make up a lot of Krynn myself as my group deviated from the metaplot quite soon.)the DSA modules are more like Dragonlance than The Enemy Within



Look at the TV Tropes entry for The Dark Eye for the peculiarities of the game and the setting.

Quote from: Settembrini;607157Note that hungary has MAGUS, which I am told is just dominant as DSA and also fosters enimity towards D&D. The peculiars are surely different, though!

M.A.G.U.S. doesn't have a monolithic playing culture, but the most common style is kinda-sorta similar to fantasy Shadowrun, with moderate-to-strong railroading in mission-based adventures. Social manipulation, breaking into very well-defended locations to steal stuff, getting dragged into court intrigues between ultra-powerful factions, and lots of ninjas. The modules are mainly presented in the form of scripts, with location descriptions largely optional, but appendices full of detailed NPCs more common.

It doesn't seem as dysfunctional as the way DSA has been described here, but it is best in its naive form, getting progressively worse and worse the more the participants get involved in the canon, hardcore historical simulation, or pushing an intrigue-centred game. On one end of the spectrum, it's cyberpunkish Renaissance D&D; on the other, it's a tedious planning exercise where nothing really happens in the end unless by GM intervention.

I don't know how M* relates to the Hungarian national character, if at all. It totally lacks the manic-depressive obsessedness or the bitter contrarianism. In a sense, it does reflect the spirit of the early 90s with its idolisation of the western-style "manager", who is rich, handsome, professional, always wears expensive sunglasses, and has expensive technical gadgets like mobile phones or private helicopters. (The same fuckers tended to turn out to be the most rotten scumbags of the time, but that's all in hindsight.)

Quote from: J ArcaneSeems to me a German wouldn't be so cavalier about a word like "fascist."

You would be surprised. It is the most convenient and effective way of character assassination in Central Europe, not to mention a focus of political hysteria; hence, it has been over-used to the point of irrelevance.