Quote from: AnthrobotBavaria, home of the tin foil wearing Illuminati?

What, no Nazi references? I'm sure you can do better

But seriously, Egypt does quite well in comparison to other middle eastern states, but it has some serious problems. It's basically the intellectual center of the Islamic world, so the groundwork for the terrorists was often laid there. It still has some problems regarding human rights and it's not sure in which direction it'll turn...

Turkey would be a bit closer for a good "Muslim" state...

I'll consider there to be a good muslim country (No quotes around good) when there's a muslim country where people can choose NOT to be muslim, NOT to dress as muslims, NOT to have sharia imposed on them and where women have full equal rights to men.

When there's a juslim country like that, I may be willing to admit there might be a good muslim country. However as long as the main muslim countries in the world are saudi arabia, iran, syria, etc, I'll still consider islam to be a form of totalitarianism and not just another religion.

Quote from: Dominus NoxI'll consider there to be a good muslim country (No quotes around good) when there's a muslim country where people can choose NOT to be muslim, NOT to dress as muslims, NOT to have sharia imposed on them and where women have full equal rights to men.

Bangladesh
Ethiopia (half moslem)
Iraq before we kicked over Saddam's tent (his deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz was Christian)
Kenya (half moslem)
Lebanon (half moslem)
Libya
Somalia before the civil war started in the late 1980s
Syria
Turkey
Tunisia

Some of those countries are not free countries, but in all of them, women have the same legal rights as men, and sharia is not imposed, nor is Islam.

In some of them, men continue to oppress women, and in practice the women are not equal. But by that standard, no country in the world is free. Consider for example the bombing of abortion clinics in the United States.

Civil conflict lets the nutters come in. If we cared about women's human rights, we'd have sanctions against Saudi Arabia, and would never have invaded Iraq.

No country or person is truly free by my definition of the word freedom, and likely never will be. We all have varying levels of freedom at different moments in our life.

By which I guess I am saying Nox's standard is a implicitly unsatisfiable one.

Dominus Nox did not mention freedom, he mentioned "equal rights" between men and women. You can equal without being free - both in the shit together.

I think we're best off using words the way they're commonly understood, not our own private definitions. Otherwise we may as well be posting on The Forge.

Quote from: SosthenesWhat, no Nazi references? I'm sure you can do better

But seriously, Egypt does quite well in comparison to other middle eastern states, but it has some serious problems. It's basically the intellectual center of the Islamic world, so the groundwork for the terrorists was often laid there. It still has some problems regarding human rights and it's not sure in which direction it'll turn...

Turkey would be a bit closer for a good "Muslim" state...

No country on this planet is without authoritarian sects, and nowhere is perfect. What I was trying to convey (in my own inept way) is that not all Muslim countries are run by frothing suicidebombing fanatics. There is variance among the different traditions of Islamic cultures and variance in applying sharia and secular ideas.

Quote from: AnthrobotNo country on this planet is without authoritarian sects, and nowhere is perfect. What I was trying to convey (in my own inept way) is that not all Muslim countries are run by frothing suicidebombing fanatics. There is variance among the different traditions of Islamic cultures and variance in applying sharia and secular ideas.

The problem is that most muslim countries where the government is more western-friendly have problems with fanatical groups resisting this progress. The "Jahiliyyah" principle is a rather dangerous line of thought...

Ahh JimBob...I love your view of the US.  Have you ever really spent any time here? Really? I'm curious?

Quote from: JimBobOzIn some of them, men continue to oppress women, and in practice the women are not equal. But by that standard, no country in the world is free. Consider for example the bombing of abortion clinics in the United States.

WTF?

I'm not even sure I can deal with a three page thesis on how the bombing of an abortion climic is the oppression of women.  Or how that has anything to do with whether or not a country oppresses women or not.

Then again, I'm sure Australia is a perfect model of non-oppression of women.  And so it makes perfect sense the JimBob would point out the nutter in the US first and foremost.

Fucking Australian.

James, a logical look at bombing of abortion clinics could be viewed as a backhanded minor oppression of women, depending on your point of view. Yes, many women oppose abortion, which could be used as a counter arguement that women are not inherently opposed BY abortion laws, but this ignores the fact that their opposition, that is to say Pro-choicers very much frame their point on 'women's rights'. So, the debate is essentially

Women's rights vs. fetal rights

In that perspective. Thus, by taking the side of the fetus, you oppress the rights of the women who carry them.  By that perspective.

Still, it was a rather bizzare choice of examples for what he thought he was illustrating.   But he wasn't, I think, attempting to denigrate the US so much as illustrate that people are not perfect.  I'd rather he used australia as a model (so as not to cast stones in his glass house) but given that he was talking to Nox he may not have had much choice.

If anybody actually cared what went on in Australia, you might see more examples featuring it.

Quote from: droogIf anybody actually cared what went on in Australia, you might see more examples featuring it.

:rimshot:

Hell, after Crocodile Dundee and his Crocodile Hunter clone died I thought they mothballed the country for being no longer relevant.

I thought that smell was sheepshit....

Quote from: SosthenesThe problem is that most muslim countries where the government is more western-friendly have problems with fanatical groups resisting this progress. The "Jahiliyyah" principle is a rather dangerous line of thought...

All countries have problems with religious fanatics, though.There are many American religious fanatics. And they have a president that shares their strange ideas. Which I find just as alarming as fanatical Muslim sects.

Quote from: AnthrobotAll countries have problems with religious fanatics, though.There are many American religious fanatics. And they have a president that shares their strange ideas. Which I find just as alarming as fanatical Muslim sects.

So, I just want to make sureI understand the implications of your statement.

Religious nuts are blowing up abortion clinics, or at least condoning the act.

George W. Bush is a religious fanatic because he is a devout Christian.

Therefore, George W. Bush is blowing up abortion clinics, or at least condoning the act.

In fact, all devout Christians are blowing up abortion clinics or at least condoning the act.

Or maybe you'd like to be a bit more specific about which strange ideas George W. Bush shares with the religious fanatics.

I mean, you can find a lot of faults with George W. Bush.  You can find a lot of faults with religious fanatics.  That means nothing in the tapestry that is America. It does not directly result in a simliarity to Islamo-fascist regimes.

When was the last abortion clinic bombing?

When was the last Islamist suicide bombing?