AFAIK Mythor IS an rpg setting!

The pbm-"Magira Welt der Waben" is Mythor based/cloned and I understand Armageddon and Midgard are also Magira-based. So somehow they all are first degree relatives.

My experience with DSA is very limited. As a player I have exactly one short afternoon session under my belt, with the author Uli Kiesow as GM.

Seriously, you have played TDE just once and talk about it, like you are an expert on that matter?

You dont like the game, thats your opinion but there are thousands of Germans out there who love to play TDE in Aventuria (or Myranor). They do that not because they are stupid idiots, but because Aventuria has actually a lot to offer.

I really really dont have a clue what your problem is with TDE, that you go into this thread telling everyone how much you think this game sucks while you have played it just once.

Quote from: Nebelherr;601773I really really dont have a clue what your problem is with TDE, that you go into this thread telling everyone how much you think this game sucks while you have played it just once.

Slight overreaction here? I really haven't seen any big "this sucks!!!"-explosions in this thread.

I just picked up the Danish versions of Midgard at the library - will check titles and do some scans this weekend.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;601770Well, "adventure" in german is "Abenteuer", so "Aventurien" (the correct spelling in German, "Aventuria" is the English translation) does sound fourth-wall-shattering in German as well*

Aventurien would have been even worse in Italian, since it would have inevitably reminded people of the way characters (rookies and officiers of the Wehrmacht) talk in the popular humorous comic strip Sturmtruppen.

Slight overreaction here? I really haven't seen any big "this sucks!!!"-explosions in this thread.

You are partially right. Dirk never said that and i mixed him up with Settembrini. I am sorry for that.

But comments like that:
DSA is the dogmatic application of the principles of no player shall ever do anything meaningful within the gameworld. That goes way beyond railroading it is all-permeating.
In return the players get to imagine to wander the landscapes and feel unity with their chosen group of like-minded emotionally aware fellows. That they do not sing-a-long more is a miracle...

They sound like "this sucks". Also i cant see the point in this comment, because its mostly wrong.

Quote from: Nebelherr;601781Dirk never said that and i mixed him up with Settembrini. I am sorry for that.

Ah, ok.

I don't hate DSA/TDE. Quite the contrary.
I am even a bit proud that a German-designed system managed to fend off the dominance of (A)D&D all those years.
(And I say that as someone who played and DM'd AD&D back then, and still DM a D&D retroclone today.)

I don't particularly like early pseudo-Renaissance-sytle settings so that's what bothers me the most in Aventuria (and Warhammer's Old World, and 7th Sea's Theah), and I don't like settings where everything is spelled out and defined in a very tight canon (D&D's Forgotten Realms, Harnmaster's Hârn, RuneQuest's Glorantha, Star Wars EU). But that's basically it, and it's no reason for hate.
I have the biggest respect for the scope of Aventuria's world design (even if I have no use for it) - the quality of the maps, the amount of detail, how the fans were involved in some of the metaplot decisions (via the Barony pbm game). That's really, really great.

But even as an AD&D and Dragonlance DM, or Midgard GM, or BESM GM, I know their shortcomings and limitations, and can name them.
I know how and why I arranged myself with those limitations.

DSA/TDE GMs should be able to do that as well.



The reason why I never played Das Schwarze Auge:
I like designing settings. Apart from Dragonlance all my campaigns were set in my own settings. I probably would have used DSA if it was more open, like Midgard or Dungeonslayers. Or (A)D&D.

With those systems it is accepted, expected even, that a DM comes up with his own world.
But in all my time in the gaming business (I ran a game store) I never met one TDE Meister who did that. Even TDE GMs that were open for other games and GM'd other RPGs (Ars Magica, Midgard, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds) didn't once think of divorcing TDE from Aventuria (all the while the Ars Magica campaign was set in a homebrew fantasy setting, not Mythic Europe!).
People are Savaging, BoL-ing, FATE-ing, and d20-ing every setting around (Settembrini DM'd D&D3 in Aventuria, so much for "hate") but TDE players don't take part in that.

I would probably have a hard time finding players for a TDE (1 or 4, doesn't matter) campaign in a world of my design, or even another published setting.
But I also think I know why : DSA/TDE players are not playing the system, they are playing the setting. DSA/TDE players don't go into Edition Wars, despite the fact that DSA1 is very different from DSA3 which is very different from DSA4.1. They just upgrade to the latest rule version - or not. I know players who play DSA3 to this day, converting 4.1 modules and sourcebooks. And sometimes it's not even a conscious decision for or against one version - they just don't seem to mind.
As long as they still play in their common Aventuria, even going from GM to GM (at conventions), "oh, but I don't have a 4th ed. character yet" - "never mind, we'll work something out", in perfect FLAILSNAIL mode.

Quote from: MatteoN;601778Aventurien would have been even worse in Italian, since it would have inevitably reminded people of the way characters (rookies and officiers of the Wehrmacht) talk in the popular humorous comic strip Sturmtruppen.

Ooh, that one was quite popular in Germany as well.

Quote from: Nebelherr;601781Slight overreaction here? I really haven't seen any big "this sucks!!!"-explosions in this thread.

You are partially right. Dirk never said that and i mixed him up with Settembrini. I am sorry for that.

But comments like that:
DSA is the dogmatic application of the principles of no player shall ever do anything meaningful within the gameworld. That goes way beyond railroading it is all-permeating.
In return the players get to imagine to wander the landscapes and feel unity with their chosen group of like-minded emotionally aware fellows. That they do not sing-a-long more is a miracle...

They sound like "this sucks". Also i cant see the point in this comment, because its mostly wrong.

It is super correct. There is railroading everywhere in DSA. THere are dozens of threads about the super duper freshness of this ONE module that is not dogmatically raildroaded.

Also look at your screen name: "Lord of the Mists".
Obfuscation and romanticism (= Mists) , coupled with "will to power"( = Lord), qed, I rest my case.

Hmmm....

RPGPundit

If someone wants to destroy the goodwill about DSA/TDE just mention the module "Tal der Finsternis" or "Die Attentäter".
It's not a railroaded adventure, it's a railway shooter galery, minus the shooting but with an added  WTF factor.

Quote from: Phantom Black;602091If someone wants to destroy the goodwill about DSA/TDE just mention the module "Tal der Finsternis" or "Die Attentäter".
It's not a railroaded adventure, it's a railway shooter galery, minus the shooting but with an added  WTF factor.

Oookay - now you got me curious. Whatthe?

I don't speak German, so I'm taking for granted that every module is a railroad, however, I also keep hearing the term "highly detailed".  If the modules are extremely detailed with maps, town and npc info, etc, then can't you just use those as great setting for a sandbox and forget the plot of the modules?

Well, at least the information in the modules is very, very hard to use in an open GMing environment.
One thing in the modules of say the last 15 years is, is that they are VERY verbose on the following parts:

- how-to-get-the-players-to-play
very often a strong handed railroad or a multitude to select from. Just to get the module started in convoluted and forced ways

- who-may-play
At least two pages are ususally spent to explain which kinds of characters from which culture or denomination could and should play the module. Now, this could be an indicator of Tekumel-like depth in social elements? No, sadly it is not. The arguments are just very verbose versions of "savage characters do not do too well in a city envrionment <>; Elves are hated here, so may not play"
Even moreso, specific magic spells are forbidden or allowed.

- introduction scene and travel
there are many "cut-scenes" in the modules and a lot of words are spent on them. Often italized so that you may read them aloud, although this is a bit on the downswing. Still, Travelling from village "A" to hamlet "B" usually is described, nay prescribed in a page or so. Random encounters miss 90% of times, but this is just a weak indicator of the amount of suckage re travel descriptions.

With the number of modules published so far (200+?) there are ofc exceptions. But none that was rocking the base assumptions. All that were have been de-canonized and basically put under a dogmatic ban or been ret-conned. Or are seen as curioisites of not-really-playing, like this Gladiator thing. The one conscious sandbox module, about managing a manor, was abysmal and not really doing what it said. But the effort shall not go unnoted.

ADD: While meant to be consensual, the all-permeating culture even rears its head in the official wiki, here a link to the auto-translate of the entry on random encounters:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wiki-aventurica.de%2Fwiki%2FZufallsbegegnung

Sett, is that a no on detailed maps, town and npc info?

Quote from: CRKrueger;602158Sett, is that a no on detailed maps, town and npc info?

Mmm. No, the maps are fine. The old maps actually are splendid and amazing things have been done with them. detailed towns...yes, they exist, and every house is described, basically. One can use this, I guess. NPC Info...well, well. In short I'd say the NPC info is just rubbish. The cosmology is nicely detailed, there is great potential there.

So basically, sett, would you say the game was hijacked in a way similar to how CoC or WFRP were hijacked by a particular group with an agenda, trying to demand a particular playstyle; only it sounds like the takeover was more total than with either of the aforementioned?

RPGPundit