There is a split product from the Midgard RPG.
The Midgard designer took the game in an ever more complex direction, while some of the players of the original campaign simplified the game more and more, eventually publishing their take under the name Abenteuer in Magira.
(That was around the time when Midgard had to drop Armageddon's "Magira" as its official setting.)

In Abenteuer in Magira the magic rules had the usual selection of standard spells, but every player of a mage was required to come up with 10 individual spells, one per level, that were his signature spells. I always liked that feature.
(I seem to remember that the player had to create those spells at character creation, even though his character was not able to cast all of them.)

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;601676Forcing Spell Casters to track down new spells once game begins is the best way to balance spell casters. Not only can you control their power level but also control what spells can be learned and make sure it will be ones that arent going to break your game.

During Character creation, the spells that a Magic-User knows are the ones he learned as an apprentice. After that, spells must be earned or found. As the character levels, his amount of known spells will increase, but no automatic learning of new spells.

And this really goes a long way to fixing the "Linear Warrior, Quadratic Wizard" problem so many people complain about.

IMHO anyway.

It does create another problem though: the potential for the entire campaign to now revolve around the Wizard.  It becomes a campaign of everyone having to accompany the wizard on his quest for more spells.

RPGPundit

I like to vary the approach.

Part of me says, "this guy's a wizard and they are magic and stuff" - so I let a few spells sorta "gel" in their mind.  When they reach a new spell level or character level (as applicable) they pick a few spells from that level.  This is what they have learned on their own, through research and experimentation that I feel MUST be inclusive in wizarding.

Similar to the assumption a warrior is probably practicing hitting things with other things all the time in order to get that better THAC0 rating.

This isn't research on particular spells, which I also encourage.  Oh, you want that Magic Circle Against Evil, yeah?  Money x Time = Research Cost.

However, other than a few as a character gets more powerful, it's always a good thing to allow spells into the campaign that a character has not run across.  That moment where they must decide to use a scroll or to learn it.  

Spells are treasure too.

The baseline assumption in AD&D is that you have to track down new spells to put in your spellbook.

People dismiss the AD&D magic-user (or OD&D, too, I guess) as being a clip-loaded blaster pistol that has to be reloaded semi-regularly and that's it; this is untrue.  

Magic-users in AD&D do get spell-study in which they try to learn a spell from a previous level that they didn't know, with the same "percentage chance to know" applying.  Wanna teach yourself Wall of Fire?  Got a 55% chance to know it?  Aw, you rolled an 81.  See you next time 'round!

When they do find a scroll or spellbook, copying its contents into their own spellbook via write is fraught with peril: the write spell is cast, and then a save v. magic is rolled.  A success means the spell is copied.  A failure means the caster takes 1d4xlevel of spell copied damage (and the spell isn't copied).  That damage can only be healed naturally by x days of rest where x = damage taken.

Then of course there's the matter of casting directly from a scroll - a lowly 1st level magic-user can attempt to cast, say, wish from a scroll, but the difference in levels between the scroll's spell and what the caster can cast indicates a chance of failure (in which case the scroll is ruined) or even the opposite effect happening!

I'd much rather see a world where casters and non-casters are relatively equal, and so letting casters gain new spells with progression is as much a non-issue as the fighters learning new combat techniques over time.

At the same time, I do like the idea of making magic more random and/or difficult to find, if only because otherwise it loses some of its... magic-ness. d20 and 4e both seemed to lack something in that regard, with magic feeling relatively mundane.

I think I'd prefer the randomness come in for the usage of the spells, though, and not their acquisition. However, I'd definitely keep the "you need to go find this" for spells of epic proportions or power. Like a spell equivalent of Excalibur, or what-not: something you have to hunt for, that no one can research on their own anymore. Why should the fighters get all the fun with finding pieces of powerful ancient history?

Quote from: RPGPundit;601867It does create another problem though: the potential for the entire campaign to now revolve around the Wizard.  It becomes a campaign of everyone having to accompany the wizard on his quest for more spells.

RPGPundit

Only if the GM and especially the other players allow it...

I think you will find fewer wizards played if those that are normally drawn to the class know they wont get to choose their spells ahead of time... There isnt much of a "power trip" if you are stuck with Magic Missile, Feather Fall and Comprehend Languages for 4 levels...

Quote from: RPGPundit;601867It does create another problem though: the potential for the entire campaign to now revolve around the Wizard.  It becomes a campaign of everyone having to accompany the wizard on his quest for more spells.

RPGPundit

Again, this was an easy fix.  One of the reasons we went skill based is that learning more advanced skills is very anaologous to learning/finding new spells (especially learning a skill with a faster experience modfier...leanring a skill from a mediocre source ensures slow, slow growth).  Many advanced skills in GS require a certain amount of texts and research or the right teacher to learn.

So everyoneis always expeneding major resources (wealth, time, and life and limb) for everyone else's research and growth.  Evens that out.

Quote from: RPGPundit;601867It does create another problem though: the potential for the entire campaign to now revolve around the Wizard.  It becomes a campaign of everyone having to accompany the wizard on his quest for more spells.

It works for old school D&D, though, since the game is explicitly structured around finding and claiming treasure (at least up to Name level). The same hoard can hold a scroll of fly for the mage, a +2 sword for the fighter and of course, wealth (and the attending XP) for everyone.

Quote from: The Butcher;601542Very easy to do with any TSR-era edition of D&D, and one of the myriad things I've considered doing in my next campaign.

Also, Mage: The Awakening.

Hrrmmm? Yes... in my 0D&D/BXD&D games the players start with spells and a spell book. Any new spell the wizard/sorcerer/shaman/witch gets has to be acquired and learned (from another spellcaster), or researched & created.

That was one of my first house rules ever. Yes Wizards are more powerful than fighters at higher levels, but often they can't tap that power unless they go out questing for new spells / material components.

...And no, they don't get to look in the PHB to see what kind of spell they can make. They have to decide using their imagination.

Quote from: GameDaddy;602037Hrrmmm? Yes... in my 0D&D/BXD&D games the players start with spells and a spell book. Any new spell the wizard/sorcerer/shaman/witch gets has to be acquired and learned (from another spellcaster), or researched & created.

That was one of my first house rules ever. Yes Wizards are more powerful than fighters at higher levels, but often they can't tap that power unless they go out questing for new spells / material components.

...And no, they don't get to look in the PHB to see what kind of spell they can make. They have to decide using their imagination.

funny; as I went a long, long way away from D&D to get there, but giving the casters a harder path due to needing to acquire more resources to actually get the spells they want to use was a goal.

Quote from: The Butcher;601987It works for old school D&D, though, since the game is explicitly structured around finding and claiming treasure (at least up to Name level). The same hoard can hold a scroll of fly for the mage, a +2 sword for the fighter and of course, wealth (and the attending XP) for everyone.

But that's not what we're talking about here; what we're talking about is when the player of the wizard says "ok, now I want the Haste spell so we all have to go to this place for no other reason than so that I can get the haste spell, and it reduces you guys to my Followers, but you have to come along anyways because you all recognize that making me more powerful will make everyone in the group much more efficient.. you fighters want to be hasted, don't you? Even if it just compounds the problem!"

RPGPundit

What about adventures focused on the fighter looking for a unique weapon? Or on a ranger seeking a specific, very rare animal?

The idea that the party is reduced to one member's followers when a given adventure is based on something that one member wants to do seems only relevant if the only things that can be sought out are for that one member. If the fighter wants to find Excalibur, and the mage wants to hunt down the haste spell, why not? It certainly seems more character-driven - and thus, IMO, more interesting - than a lot of canned modules out there. So long as the opportunity exists for everyone to have things they want to go hunt down, then it's not biased for or against any one class.

Technically you're right, there is an analog for this in TSR D&D. The fighter could seek additional Weapon Proficiency/Specialization/Mastery/Style by seeking a tutor or personal research as well. Similarly the rogue and fighter sought better gear and materials, just like spells and components. And (this is a bit of a stretch depending on your table) the bard also sought better entertainments, technique, and lore. All of which often lead to more adventure!

I think that sounds like a table problem where the play group assumes their characters must be glued to the hip and time keeping is not kept as strictly. But that's just me.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;602228What about adventures focused on the fighter looking for a unique weapon? Or on a ranger seeking a specific, very rare animal?

The idea that the party is reduced to one member's followers when a given adventure is based on something that one member wants to do seems only relevant if the only things that can be sought out are for that one member. If the fighter wants to find Excalibur, and the mage wants to hunt down the haste spell, why not? It certainly seems more character-driven - and thus, IMO, more interesting - than a lot of canned modules out there. So long as the opportunity exists for everyone to have things they want to go hunt down, then it's not biased for or against any one class.

Thing is, it could happen that a fighter will want to find some specific weapon, or the ranger some rare animal, but these things aren't as absolutely tied to his efficiency as the mage's spells are to the mage!
And likewise, if it happens, it is likely to happen what, once? Twice in a campaign?

Whereas with a wizard, think of how many spells he has to find...

RPGPundit

*gasp* Are you suggesting that the fighter has a significant advantage over the wizard by not needing to find new power through adventuring?

(I know, I know, it's flirting with an already beaten and dead topic. But it was a most entertaining sarcasm opportunity, you must admit.)