ICONS does it better, where the central feature is not what points you've put into what kind of clever attack, but how you are representing the key traits of your character (and note, "can fly and fire energy bolts" is not what I mean by key traits).

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;599839ICONS does it better, where the central feature is not what points you've put into what kind of clever attack, but how you are representing the key traits of your character (and note, "can fly and fire energy bolts" is not what I mean by key traits).

There's a lot Fate gets wrong, but Aspects and most of how they're used are done very, very right. (Which is why I'm using them in my own little action-movie RPG.)

What about them do you think ICONS did right?

Quote from: poseidon-anubis;599871ok so how does it work
How do you keep powergamers from making death machine characters without much weakness?

You have limited points to build a character.

Quote from: poseidon-anubis;599871ok so how does it work
How do you keep powergamers from making death machine characters without much weakness?

Basically a bunch of little things that persuades them to play the game as a comic book rather than just a personal power fantasy.

For example
I require players to describe their characters first then find the mechanics that fit that description.

I will and have vetoed builds as exploiting known Hero System loop holes.

I been playing Hero System in various forms for 30 years and the player know it.

It is primarily an issue of communication and effective teaching. The object of which is to show them how much more interesting and fun RPGs are when you play them as if your character was really there rather than just as a game to be mastered.

The biggest issue I run across isn't power gaming but rather getting across the idea that while the Hero System can allow just about any type of character the fact we start at X point level means they won't be able to do everything they want. At First.  

Also that while Hero System is flexible it is not infinitely flexible so your powers will be close but not exact. Most players accept this when I point out the different origin stories where the hero was exploring how his powers work. While Marvel and DC share a lot of common elements, details work differently for the same power.  The same with my comic book universe.  But now and again I get the player who just won't accept that.

The most recent was a guy who wanted to make a hero that had powers that worked by stealing kinetic energy. He expected to have a bunch of side effects and just couldn't get it into his head that he needed to factor all that in his powers. They don't come for free. It didn't helped he wasn't very forthcoming on explaining the specifics of what he was looking to do despite my repeated attempts get more details. It got the point where his best friend stepped in and told him stop being a prick about it.

Quote from: estar;598813The main problem is they both took the idea of being a generic toolkit to an unnecessary extreme. Which alienated 3/4 of those gamers. They want to play a complete RPG and not have to build one themselves. This caused Hero Games and GURPS to decline to decline in comparison to their competition. And compounded with the smaller RPG market this was a very bad things for both games.

I may have to agree with this.  Enough with the giant GURPS and HERO core books.  You don't see gamers flocking to them or the BRP core book do you?  No.  They flock to the Call of Cthulhu and Gaslight books.  If they do flock to a core book, it's something lite-ish like Savage Worlds' small format book.

Just make a game book called Champions.  Don't even mention HERO on the cover.  Just make a game book called Space 2889.  Don't even mention GURPS on the cover.

But this all academic anyway.  PDF's and iPad-like app readers are all the rage now.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;598849I would buy GURPS Banestorm Complete in a heartbeat.

Ooh.  Good pick.

Quote from: RPGPundit;599404There's a simple answer to that: they're wrong.  The system focuses on the wrong things.

RPGPundit

I'm mixed on the supers genre.  I would like to GM a supers game.  But I don't yet know whether to run the campaign as a comicbook framed page, a comicbook world, or as a real-world with super-powered characters in it?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;599915I'm mixed on the supers genre.  I would like to GM a supers game.  But I don't yet know whether to run the campaign as a comicbook framed page, a comicbook world, or as a real-world with super-powered characters in it?

I don't gm Supers any differently than swords and sorcery fantasy.

A dnd wizard with fly, fireball, and fireshield is not all that different than the human torch.

People may roast me for saying it, but I dont think trying to gm a supers game 'like a comic book' is particularly fun.



I am a huge comic book fan, by the way.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;599843There's a lot Fate gets wrong, but Aspects and most of how they're used are done very, very right. (Which is why I'm using them in my own little action-movie RPG.)

What about them do you think ICONS did right?

That there isn't a pointbuy system that focuses on power-building; that the emphasis is not on the powers but on the defining characteristics of the hero, that the mechanics are an actual effort to emulate what happens in comics.

RPGPundit

Quote from: estar;599895Basically a bunch of little things that persuades them to play the game as a comic book rather than just a personal power fantasy.

For example
I require players to describe their characters first then find the mechanics that fit that description.

I will and have vetoed builds as exploiting known Hero System loop holes.

I been playing Hero System in various forms for 30 years and the player know it.

It is primarily an issue of communication and effective teaching. The object of which is to show them how much more interesting and fun RPGs are when you play them as if your character was really there rather than just as a game to be mastered.

The biggest issue I run across isn't power gaming but rather getting across the idea that while the Hero System can allow just about any type of character the fact we start at X point level means they won't be able to do everything they want. At First.  

Also that while Hero System is flexible it is not infinitely flexible so your powers will be close but not exact. Most players accept this when I point out the different origin stories where the hero was exploring how his powers work. While Marvel and DC share a lot of common elements, details work differently for the same power.  The same with my comic book universe.  But now and again I get the player who just won't accept that.

The most recent was a guy who wanted to make a hero that had powers that worked by stealing kinetic energy. He expected to have a bunch of side effects and just couldn't get it into his head that he needed to factor all that in his powers. They don't come for free. It didn't helped he wasn't very forthcoming on explaining the specifics of what he was looking to do despite my repeated attempts get more details. It got the point where his best friend stepped in and told him stop being a prick about it.

It IS in fact, very good at simulating the superhero theme "Responsibility of Power."  Because if the PLAYER doesn't have any such sense of responsibility, then the GM has to teach it to him.  

JG

Quote from: RPGPundit;600113That there isn't a pointbuy system that focuses on power-building; that the emphasis is not on the powers but on the defining characteristics of the hero, that the mechanics are an actual effort to emulate what happens in comics.

RPGPundit

I realize this is dragging things further off topic but, based on this, Pundit, I think you might want to check out Capes Cowls and Villains Foul.  I think it does most of this better than ICONS.  But if someone thinks "emulating a comic book" is not a worthwhile goal, then feel free to stay away.

Quote from: RPGPundit;600113

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;599843Aspects and most of how they're used are done very, very right. What about them do you think ICONS did right?

That there isn't a pointbuy system that focuses on power-building;

I was asking specifically about Aspects. Those seem to be the focus of your admiration for ICONS, I was wondering what about Aspects you find superior to the standard Fate implementation.

Also, re: Retcons. Isn't that the kind of Narrativist mechanic that you find aggravating? What about ICONS makes you overlook it?

(This isn't an argument, BTW. I find Declarations and other "players write the world" mechanics to be wrong-headed, IMHO. They make the game world malleable for players, less real. I prefer a more traditional approach.)

Quote from: drkrash;600350I realize this is dragging things further off topic but, based on this, Pundit, I think you might want to check out Capes Cowls and Villains Foul.  I think it does most of this better than ICONS.  But if someone thinks "emulating a comic book" is not a worthwhile goal, then feel free to stay away.

They could always send me a review copy; but for the moment I'm pretty satisfied with ICONS.

RPGPundit

Well I tend to agree with most of you and the rest of you I dis-agree with.  As I own every Supers game known to man almost or owned at one time or another.