Quote from: Justin Alexander;596720It's certainly possible. But GURPS had enough popularity in the first 20 years of its existence to support one of the largest libraries of supplemental material in the RPG industry. So it seems more likely that something changed to reduce its popularity, rather than that everyone woke up one day and said, "Holy crap, that's a really stupid name."

Off-hand, looking at the timeline involved, there appear to be three possibilities:

(1) Something happened shortly before the release of 4th Edition that reduced the popularity of the system (and possibly prompted the release of 4th Edition in effort to get the system back on track). 4th Edition came out in 2004: That suggests that the D20 boom or the industry contraction in 2003 could be pointed at. But it's also possible that GURPS had simply reached the end of a very long supplement treadmill and/or was now sufficiently "archaic" by industry standards that it was losing popularity to newer, arguably superior generic engines.

(2) The release of 4th Edition itself precipitated the problem. This is my personal theory: By 2000, the GURPS engine was something of a relic. It continued to enjoy immense popularity, however, because it was uniquely well-supported as a universal game engine due to the legacy of its huge support library. 4th Edition eliminated the only advantage GURPS still had going for it.

(3) Some combination of both #1 and #2.

Or #4: it was the supplements that were popular, not GURPS itself. So when 4ed came out and SJG switched to re-releasing the old supplements with compatibility changes, few people saw the need to upgrade to the new versions; they never used GURPS itself, just the non-game material, so they saw no point in the upgrade.

This was a symptom of another problem, which is what lead to GURPS 4th in the first place. SJG was catering to two audiences: those who wanted detailed sourcebooks, primarily for historical material they couldn't find from other RPG companies, and those who wanted "realistic" game rules. The former often didn't care about the increasingly-complex GURPS combat system; if they played GURPS at all, instead of using GURPS world books with some other system, they just used the basic 3d6 resolution system and didn't bother with things like the size/range table.

Before GURPS 4th came out, SJG released a two-volume GURPS Compendium, which collected additional rules that had been developed in various supplements. They tended towards the more detailed and more complicated, soe they were obviously aimed at the "realistic" camp, rather than the "detailed" camp, and some of these revised rules formed the basis of changes included in GURPS 4th. So, the Compendiums were basically the first warning that SJG was choosing to cater to the needs of Camp 2 instead of Camp 1.

The problem, of course, is that Camp 1 was their source of income. Camp 2 was just a tiny customer base. So sales of GURPS lagged, and sales of Munchkin (obviously not aimed at Camp 2 people) became SJG's bread and butter.

Really, it's just the same thing we see over and over with game companies who squander their popularity. They come up with something new that people like, then they drive those people away while catering to a small obsessive fan base.

And to tie this into the real point of the thread: I'd say that the essence of a munchkin is identical to the essence of these small, obsessive demographics. Munchkin sells better than GURPS because GURPS started catering to munchkins.

I don't think GURPS is a dinosaur.  It's certainly a simulationist game but there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem with 4e though is that it's a massive compendium edition that's really dependent on system mastery and a firm GM.  I'd much prefer a book more in line with the 3e version of characters with the vast majority of supernatural and cinematic stuff in supplements.  It's much easier to say, anything in the basic set + fantasy is okay than write a ten page treatise on what is or is not allowed and why.

The speed range table isn't complex but I do think the high penalties at short ranges are off putting to new players.  I wish they'd kept the -4 snap shot penalty and bumped the modifiers on the table by 4 points to balance it.  But I'm really glad they dropped the old snap shot rating and autofire rules.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;595406So, what is Munchkin?

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508. . . {I}f you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

Asked and answered.

Quote from: David Johansen;596733I don't think GURPS is a dinosaur.  It's certainly a simulationist game but there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem with 4e though is that it's a massive compendium edition that's really dependent on system mastery and a firm GM.  I'd much prefer a book more in line with the 3e version of characters with the vast majority of supernatural and cinematic stuff in supplements.  It's much easier to say, anything in the basic set + fantasy is okay than write a ten page treatise on what is or is not allowed and why.

The speed range table isn't complex but I do think the high penalties at short ranges are off putting to new players.  I wish they'd kept the -4 snap shot penalty and bumped the modifiers on the table by 4 points to balance it.  But I'm really glad they dropped the old snap shot rating and autofire rules.

Pretty much.

The issue with GURPS for new players/GMs is that the basic game includes too much. The whole thing is a gigantic toolbox from which the experienced can construct a great game.

Hardcore design geeks can take that concept and start building. Everyone else will just keep looking for a more focused system that gives them the game they are looking for without having to build it themselves. Its just too difficult to buy the basic set books, read them, and begin playing something without a whole lot of picking through stuff to get what you need.

Dungeon Fantasy supplements have some cool stuff in them but there is still all of the exclusions to be done from the basic book before you can play a D&D style game with them.

To use a food analogy, think of GURPS crunch as succulent crabmeat. The basic books are a basket of steamed crabs. What gamers want is a plate of delicious crabcakes.

Gurps is close to the bottom of my list of games. I really dislike the system.

But when it comes to sourcebooks, Gurps may well be the King of rpgs.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596036I think you mean "saved". If SJG was completely dependent on the sales of GURPS supplements, there are pretty good odds they would have gone out of business.

It's still possible they're going to decide to stop throwing out money on GURPS and just work on Munchkin some day.

And as long as people are ragging on GURPS I'd like to pitch in too. You can run any setting or premise with the system and all it feels like is GURPS.

I think GURPS struggles with flavor as much because the art and layout and page design all scream GURPS as anything rules related.  It would help a great deal if there was a stylistic character sheet for each genre and the books each had their own style.

But even I'll admit that GURPS only works if the GM is fluent in the rules and good at creating flavor on their own.  The tools are there and knowing how and when to use them is important.

For example in our horror game on Monday one PC emptied a clip from his FN-FAL through a closed, armored door into the room behind (armored door? It's a FAL!) I didn't layout the room behind the door and check to see which targets were hit.  I just had him roll the attack and determined the number of hits.  It's far easier to abstract a concrete system than it is to draw concrete data out of an abstract one.

There's still the tension of the unseen and unknown that way.

But, yeah, you'll never see GURPS using a Jenga tower or anything like that.

Quote from: David Johansen;596847But, yeah, you'll never see GURPS using a Jenga tower or anything like that.

Well you could buy GURPS Jenga Towers, it has a lot of well researched background information and the rules to simulate characters playing Jenga in a completely realistically physical oh God someone kill me.

Quote from: vytzka;596887Well you could buy GURPS Jenga Towers, it has a lot of well researched background information and the rules to simulate characters playing Jenga in a completely realistically physical oh God someone kill me.

:rotfl:

I know GURPS gets a bad rep for being too gritty but there is quite a bit of cinematic stuff that is just silly and fun. The bulletproof nudity rules, skills such as SCIENCE! and THE SWORD! ,etc allow for some wacky off the wall stuff.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;596893:rotfl:

I know GURPS gets a bad rep for being too gritty but there is quite a bit of cinematic stuff that is just silly and fun. The bulletproof nudity rules, skills such as SCIENCE! and THE SWORD! ,etc allow for some wacky off the wall stuff.

But those are gritty, overly-detailed silliness. For example, precise PD adjustments for every degree of nudity. That's taking the fun out of silliness.

I'll be damned if I can actually explain it in words, but even on the same level of granularity Rolemaster combat seems fun and visceral, whereas GURPS just feels like shuffling numbers around.

Open ended roll! That's 17 hits and a D puncture critical and you rolled 83. Blood is spraying everywhere from that abdominal wound you just inflicted. Scary! +10 hits, 3 rounds stunned no parry, bleeding for 6 and at -20 for one round.

vs (sorry don't remember exact numbers anymore as it's been a while)

You rolled a 7 and hit them in the head! They flub their parry. You're using a pick so the damage that goes through armor is tripled or something. Oh and *roll* your pick is stuck in their head and you have to pry it free next round.


Is it the pithy little descriptions? The fun icons with effects - if you get a whole row of them as above, you know it's gonna hurt? The fact that pretty much everything is on the chart instead of remembering a bunch of rules, and so much variety there? The much larger numbers of damage done (the Final Fantasy effect so to speak)? The d100, open ended vs 3d6 (which is simultaneously more variety and higher numbers)? The fact that the GURPS GM I spent most time playing with was absolutely atrocious and a huge fan of 3e for some reason? Probably all of the above in varying amounts.

Quote from: vytzka;596934I'll be damned if I can actually explain it in words, but even on the same level of granularity Rolemaster combat seems fun and visceral, whereas GURPS just feels like shuffling numbers around.

Open ended roll! That's 17 hits and a D puncture critical and you rolled 83. Blood is spraying everywhere from that abdominal wound you just inflicted. Scary! +10 hits, 3 rounds stunned no parry, bleeding for 6 and at -20 for one round.

vs (sorry don't remember exact numbers anymore as it's been a while)

You rolled a 7 and hit them in the head! They flub their parry. You're using a pick so the damage that goes through armor is tripled or something. Oh and *roll* your pick is stuck in their head and you have to pry it free next round.


Is it the pithy little descriptions? The fun icons with effects - if you get a whole row of them as above, you know it's gonna hurt? The fact that pretty much everything is on the chart instead of remembering a bunch of rules, and so much variety there? The much larger numbers of damage done (the Final Fantasy effect so to speak)? The d100, open ended vs 3d6 (which is simultaneously more variety and higher numbers)? The fact that the GURPS GM I spent most time playing with was absolutely atrocious and a huge fan of 3e for some reason? Probably all of the above in varying amounts.

It's all based on experience and it sounds like you had a great Rolemaster experience vs. a terrible GURPS experience. I'm the opposite....I would rather eat shards of glass now than try to play Rolemaster again, but GURPS seems trivially easy to me (to run....prepping for it is more nightmarish).

Likewise, I'll take Rolemaster or GURPS over Hero. Which I guess means I'd rather eat glass while playing Rolemaster than play (or run) Hero.

Quote from: vytzka;596887Well you could buy GURPS Jenga Towers, it has a lot of well researched background information and the rules to simulate characters playing Jenga in a completely realistically physical oh God someone kill me.

If you'll send me a round trip ticket to lithuania.....

Quote from: Bill;596829Gurps is close to the bottom of my list of games. I really dislike the system.

But when it comes to sourcebooks, Gurps may well be the King of rpgs.

I agree. The one game system I'll never play or run that I own the most products for. The 3rd edition sourcebooks are absolute gold. I must have close to 100 of them.

Speaking of munchkin, I'd say a great(?) example of munchkins would be the mods on the banning page. Selfish, immature little power trippers who want everything their way, want to be all powerful, have no respect for others, demand everything go their way all the time, etc.

This board is ran by good gamers who know gaming  isn't all about them and what they personally want. So just compare this place to rpg.net to see the difference between good gamers and munchkins.