Quote from: vytzka;595656What is munchkin?

Being offended at the mischaracterization of being described as one of "munchkin", "twink", "powergamer" or "minmaxer" instead of their preferred pick out of the set is usually a good sign. Also people who pretend that there's some clearly defined definition, usually a clear line between "good munchkins" they identify as and "bad munchkins".

There are clearly-defined meanings of "munchkin". Just not common ones. I'm all for the fuzziness of language, but that fuzziness comes from variation from community to community and context to context; the definitions of words are based on the consensus within a given community.

Which, you know, appears to be the purpose of this thread: to poll this community to see what definition seems to be common.

People who complain about a word not having a clear definition and reject attempts to reach such a consensus are usually afraid of what the definition may turn out to be.

As a GURPS fan I must confess amusement at the bitter irony that GURPS is being killed by a card game called Munchkin.

Quote from: Phantom Black;595716Hoagie's!
A munchkin is nothing short of a cheating scumbag that just tries to pose as an Optimizer or Powergamer.

But does that mean there are no optimizers or powergamers?

I have to admit, "optimizer" is a pretty BS word to use to describe a type of gamer. EVERY gamer optimizes to some extent, after all (not alot of wizards that don't have Int as highest possible, or at least high, stat, for example).

On the other hand, Powergamer does sound pretty interchangeable with Munchkin.

And how is GURPS being taken out by a card game? I don't see how one really messes the other that much.

Quote from: David Johansen;596025As a GURPS fan I must confess amusement at the bitter irony that GURPS is being killed by a card game called Munchkin.

I think you mean "saved". If SJG was completely dependent on the sales of GURPS supplements, there are pretty good odds they would have gone out of business.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596036I think you mean "saved". If SJG was completely dependent on the sales of GURPS supplements, there are pretty good odds they would have gone out of business.

This might be a good thing. if the company went under maybe someone would buy the rights to gurps and do it better than it's being done now, which is the proverbial 'red headed stepchild' status.

Maybe someone like the people doing Eclipse Phase would get the rights to it and market it like EP.

I'm not sure.  I think properly handled SJG could have really capitalized on the 4e D&D fan split.  I think with proper art direction, setting tailored intro books, and a compelling setting GURPS could command a greater portion of the market share.  I'm sure if they'd just get GURPS Vehicle Design out they'd totally eclipse Pathfinder and all those other D&D varients for the #1 spot.  (okay probably not...)

But yeah, I think it's deeper than the bulk of the resources being dumped into other games, it's a rejection of setting and art as selling points.  "Generic Universal" I get it, but like it or not, settings sell far more games than rules.  And art sells settings.  I like the intent of the 4e art.  I like that they went with a realistic and grounded look instead of the goofy toons found in other books (huh, maybe in 5e D&D can just have PCs fall down for three minutes...)  There's a reason that Angus McBride is the greatest rpg artist ever (what me biased?).

What GURPS needs is a Warhammer 40k or a Rifts of its own.  Not in the sense of a goofy, absurdly hard core mishmash but in the sense of a successful, supported, and compelling setting with its own artistic vision.

But, I won't deny that the truck loads of money Munchkin brings in are what keeps SJG going, I only question whether it's the only possible solution.

Munchkin d20 was the first RPG that violated the d20 System Trademark License in that it used the d20 logo and contained the full character creation rules (which would have been ok under the OGL but not the d20STL).
Today the d20 logo has vanished:

       

But that was not due to WotC going after SJG. (They never seemed to bother.)
It was because the whole license was revoked in ... 2008?

I always thought a munchkin was a player that desired overpowered stuff and cared little for roleplay.


And a delicious treat from Dunkin Donuts.

Quote from: Bill;596220I always thought a munchkin was a player that desired overpowered stuff and cared little for roleplay.

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They pretty much are.  The problem is that those munchkins don't like to be called munchkins so they made up another word for it, and added a bunch of other criteria to the definition, like "munchkins will cheat", when in fact not all munchkins will cheat.

I think the specific definitions of "powergamer", "rules lawyer" and "min-maxer" are far more clear cut than Muchkin.  I suppose "munchkin" might be someone who does all of the former without any of the technical precision; so, an amateur doofus who wants to be very powerful and play the system.

RPGPundit

As to gurps being killed by munchkin, I think part of what hurt gurps was the name. I mean, damn, if they can't come up with something better than that how good can the game be?

Gurps sounds like a babyfood or something similar.

Quote from: red lantern;596685As to gurps being killed by munchkin, I think part of what hurt gurps was the name. I mean, damn, if they can't come up with something better than that how good can the game be?

Gurps sounds like a babyfood or something similar.

I do think the name was an issue.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;596697I do think the name was an issue.

As a joke/slap at the government they could have called it "I.R.S." for "Infinite Roleplaying System".

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;596697I do think the name was an issue.

It's certainly possible. But GURPS had enough popularity in the first 20 years of its existence to support one of the largest libraries of supplemental material in the RPG industry. So it seems more likely that something changed to reduce its popularity, rather than that everyone woke up one day and said, "Holy crap, that's a really stupid name."

Off-hand, looking at the timeline involved, there appear to be three possibilities:

(1) Something happened shortly before the release of 4th Edition that reduced the popularity of the system (and possibly prompted the release of 4th Edition in effort to get the system back on track). 4th Edition came out in 2004: That suggests that the D20 boom or the industry contraction in 2003 could be pointed at. But it's also possible that GURPS had simply reached the end of a very long supplement treadmill and/or was now sufficiently "archaic" by industry standards that it was losing popularity to newer, arguably superior generic engines.

(2) The release of 4th Edition itself precipitated the problem. This is my personal theory: By 2000, the GURPS engine was something of a relic. It continued to enjoy immense popularity, however, because it was uniquely well-supported as a universal game engine due to the legacy of its huge support library. 4th Edition eliminated the only advantage GURPS still had going for it.

(3) Some combination of both #1 and #2.

I dont think the name explains its current state of popularity. My only point was when it first came out, the name was something of a deterrent. I think it would have been slightly more popular in its heyday if they selected a half descent name. It wasn't one of those names that made you want to play.